SIDE BY SIDE - D70 vs Rebel XT/350D

Two more non-advantage points: the D70 has a penta-Dach-mirror
viewfinder, not a pentaprism;

so does the Canon:
Eye-level SLR (with fixed pentamirror)

you can send email to me using
mendelson-at-mendelson-dot-nl
www.mendelson.nl

"T.N.T." wrote in message
ia.disorg...
On Mon, 07 Mar 2005 17:38:25 GMT, "Steven M. Scharf"
, wrote in
ink.net:

"adm" wrote in message
...

"Steven M. Scharf" wrote in message

Ummmm.....what about spot metering and fast flash sync ?

The D70 is an anomaly in terms of the fast flash sync, even the D2X
doesn't have the fast flash sync.

It's because the D70's 1/500s flash sync at ISO200 is exactly the same as
the D2X's 1/250s at ISO100. No advantage there whatsoever.

Ah, you're right of course, I forgot that the D70 doesn't support ISO 100.
Thanks for pointing that out.

T.N.T. wrote:

the D70's flash sync speed of 1/500s at
ISO200 vs 350D's 1/200s at ISO100 is just 1/3 stop different, not as
much an advantage that 1/500s vs 1/200s makes it out to be. That makes
it 16-15 for D70.

The point of faster flash synch is to have shorter exposure times: 1/500
will stop action better than 1/200.

Bob

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 12:50:15 -0500, bob wrote:

T.N.T. wrote:

the D70's flash sync speed of 1/500s at
ISO200 vs 350D's 1/200s at ISO100 is just 1/3 stop different, not as
much an advantage that 1/500s vs 1/200s makes it out to be. That makes
it 16-15 for D70.

The point of faster flash synch is to have shorter exposure times: 1/500
will stop action better than 1/200.

Not only that, but to still be able to use fill flash in bright
sunlight when faster shutter speeds are a necessity to maintain proper
exposure. Looking at this purely in the sense of stops is just weird.

--
Owamanga!

bob wrote:

T.N.T. wrote:

the D70's flash sync speed of 1/500s at
ISO200 vs 350D's 1/200s at ISO100 is just 1/3 stop different, not as
much an advantage that 1/500s vs 1/200s makes it out to be. That makes
it 16-15 for D70.


The point of faster flash synch is to have shorter exposure times: 1/500
will stop action better than 1/200.

The action is stopped by the flash light which has a duration of much
less than a ms ( 1/1000) up to about 2ms at max duration.

Having a fast sync:
-freezes motion from _ambient_ light contribution. In many situtations
the ambient light is so low as to not contribute to the exposure.

-reduces ambient light contribution. Sometimes (often) one wants to
make sure that only the light from the flash is in the exposure, faster
sync reduces the ambient exposure (and not neccesarily for motion-freeze
reasons).

Flash photography is always 2 exposures, ambient and flash, at the same
time.

(A rear sync is useful to capture the motion at lower shutter speeds and
freeze the ambient movement at the end of the full frame exposure cycle).

Cheers,
Alan.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.

Steven M. Scharf wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...


Well ... remember that when sensor cleaning, they recommend
operating it from the AC power adaptor, which suggests that holding the
mirror up drains the battery rather quickly.


They are simply concerned that someone might attempt sensor cleaning with an
almost-exhausted battery, and the camera will turn off, and the mirror will
crash down on a brush.

The shutter is the delicate part if it closes, at high velocity, over a
brush. The crashing of the mirror might also push the brush/blower onto
the sensor.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.

Alan Browne wrote:
bob wrote:

T.N.T. wrote:

the D70's flash sync speed of 1/500s at
ISO200 vs 350D's 1/200s at ISO100 is just 1/3 stop different, not as
much an advantage that 1/500s vs 1/200s makes it out to be. That makes
it 16-15 for D70.



The point of faster flash synch is to have shorter exposure times:
1/500 will stop action better than 1/200.


The action is stopped by the flash light which has a duration of much
less than a ms ( 1/1000) up to about 2ms at max duration.

Having a fast sync:
-freezes motion from _ambient_ light contribution. In many
situtations the ambient light is so low as to not contribute to the
exposure.

-reduces ambient light contribution. Sometimes (often) one wants to
make sure that only the light from the flash is in the exposure, faster
sync reduces the ambient exposure (and not neccesarily for motion-freeze
reasons).

Flash photography is always 2 exposures, ambient and flash, at the same
time.

(A rear sync is useful to capture the motion at lower shutter speeds and
freeze the ambient movement at the end of the full frame exposure cycle).

I was thinking back to my days as a newspaper photographer. Whenever I
took pictures at a press conference, I had to be certain my subject was
not waving his arms around -- my 1/60 flash synch was not nearly fast
enough to freeze his motion, and the rooms were brightly enough lit that
ambient light was nearly sufficient on it's own. I'd end up with
pictures of people who seemed to have no hands :-(

I suppose a brighter flash would have changed the ratio, but the Vivitar
235 was all I had.

When I used the Nikons with their 1/250 synch, the problem was greatly
reduced.

Bob

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 13:10:05 -0500, Alan Browne
wrote:

bob wrote:

T.N.T. wrote:

the D70's flash sync speed of 1/500s at
ISO200 vs 350D's 1/200s at ISO100 is just 1/3 stop different, not as
much an advantage that 1/500s vs 1/200s makes it out to be. That makes
it 16-15 for D70.

Thinking about this some more, you'd need twice the power output to
illuminate the same scene if you drop from ISO200 to ISO100,
effectively cutting your flash power in half, limiting ranges,
doubling recharge times etc. This just isn't a good comparison.



The point of faster flash synch is to have shorter exposure times: 1/500
will stop action better than 1/200.

The action is stopped by the flash light which has a duration of much
less than a ms ( 1/1000) up to about 2ms at max duration.

But the exposure still captures ambient light, suggesting movement if
there is any.

Having a fast sync:
-freezes motion from _ambient_ light contribution. In many situtations
the ambient light is so low as to not contribute to the exposure.

This is true when photographing in dark places with no
point-light-sources (a rare event) - usually night scenes include some
form of illumination source and these need a relatively fast shutter
speed to stop them from moving (at least 1/focal length would be
suitable). Not an argument for *high speed* flash, traditional cameras
with anything less than a 160mm lens work fine in these situations.

-reduces ambient light contribution. Sometimes (often) one wants to
make sure that only the light from the flash is in the exposure, faster
sync reduces the ambient exposure (and not neccesarily for motion-freeze
reasons).

Yes it will do this, but I can't think of a situation outside of the
studio (and you say 'often') where you'd want to kill *all* ambient
light. It's ambient light that brings atmosphere, usually you want to
get as much as you can without introducing motion blur. If your
problem is mixed lighting (tungsten w/flash or fluorescent w/flash
then just use a suitable flash filter to compensate).

Flash photography is always 2 exposures, ambient and flash, at the same
time.

You missed the killer, the big one, the real reason for fast sync:

It lets you fill-flash in broad daylight, dark Churches or anywhere in
between.

A shutterbug article for those who are not convinced:
http://www.shutterbug.net/features/1100sb_using/

(A rear sync is useful to capture the motion at lower shutter speeds and
freeze the ambient movement at the end of the full frame exposure cycle).

Yes, and a rear curtain flash prevents the flash-flinching of fast
responding animals or children from being part of the exposure
(assumes camera doesn't use pre-flash for metering or anti-redeue
gizmo).

--
Owamanga!

Owamanga wrote:


Thinking about this some more, you'd need twice the power output to
illuminate the same scene if you drop from ISO200 to ISO100,
effectively cutting your flash power in half, limiting ranges,
doubling recharge times etc. This just isn't a good comparison.

It's part of a comparison. The whole is important.




The point of faster flash synch is to have shorter exposure times: 1/500
will stop action better than 1/200.

The action is stopped by the flash light which has a duration of much
less than a ms ( 1/1000) up to about 2ms at max duration.


But the exposure still captures ambient light, suggesting movement if
there is any.

If the ambient falls 4 or 5 stops below the exp. setting (S+A), there
will be no recording of it. See Bob's other post .. the other extreme
is shooting someone who is fairly well lit.



Having a fast sync:
-freezes motion from _ambient_ light contribution. In many situtations
the ambient light is so low as to not contribute to the exposure.


This is true when photographing in dark places with no
point-light-sources (a rare event) - usually night scenes include some
form of illumination source and these need a relatively fast shutter
speed to stop them from moving (at least 1/focal length would be
suitable). Not an argument for *high speed* flash, traditional cameras
with anything less than a 160mm lens work fine in these situations.

Even in my makeshift studio with a couple 100W bulbs aimed at the
ceiling (albeit med-dark wood), plus the softboxes, plus some light
leaking via the blinds, there is no ambient recording at 1/160 f/8.




-reduces ambient light contribution. Sometimes (often) one wants to
make sure that only the light from the flash is in the exposure, faster
sync reduces the ambient exposure (and not neccesarily for motion-freeze
reasons).


Yes it will do this, but I can't think of a situation outside of the
studio (and you say 'often') where you'd want to kill *all* ambient
light. It's ambient light that brings atmosphere, usually you want to
get as much as you can without introducing motion blur. If your
problem is mixed lighting (tungsten w/flash or fluorescent w/flash
then just use a suitable flash filter to compensate).

I'm not saying it's a practice for allsits, although in the studio it
usually is.



Flash photography is always 2 exposures, ambient and flash, at the same
time.


You missed the killer, the big one, the real reason for fast sync:

It lets you fill-flash in broad daylight, dark Churches or anywhere in
between.

I have no prob fill flashing in broad daylight for most compos, I just
dial the flash comp back to -0.5 to -2 and I'm set. The brighter it is,
the less fill (no automation there, you have to judge it).

For dark interiors where I want to fill in BG light (the inevitable
X-mas tree portrits) I just use slow sync or manually set flash and
ambient xposures. Get it all.

For very shallow DOF, I have HSS, and I can fill flash and frezze motion
at the same pump. And/or ND's (but that's bit tedious).

HSS is also useful for bringing the GN of the flash WAY down when the
flash comp is not enough. 1/4000 and that flash is sucked dry and
probably falls on less than 5% of the film at any time during the shot.


A shutterbug article for those who are not convinced:
http://www.shutterbug.net/features/1100sb_using/


(A rear sync is useful to capture the motion at lower shutter speeds and
freeze the ambient movement at the end of the full frame exposure cycle).


Yes, and a rear curtain flash prevents the flash-flinching of fast
responding animals or children from being part of the exposure
(assumes camera doesn't use pre-flash for metering or anti-redeue
gizmo).

I shoot manual exp/manual flash when I want effects, so no-preflash. I
just got the Maxxum 7D and the ADI / pre-flash is very noticeable and
I'm wondering about the total shutter lag now. Preflash with the 5400
on the Maxxum 9 is only noticeable if you really pay attention.

Cheers, Alan.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch.

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 14:08:28 -0500, Alan Browne
wrote:

Owamanga wrote:

You missed the killer, the big one, the real reason for fast sync:

It lets you fill-flash in broad daylight, dark Churches or anywhere in
between.

I have no prob fill flashing in broad daylight for most compos, I just
dial the flash comp back to -0.5 to -2 and I'm set. The brighter it is,
the less fill (no automation there, you have to judge it).

For dark interiors where I want to fill in BG light (the inevitable
X-mas tree portrits) I just use slow sync or manually set flash and
ambient xposures. Get it all.

For very shallow DOF, I have HSS, and I can fill flash and frezze motion
at the same pump. And/or ND's (but that's bit tedious).

I'm surprised you have the flash power needed to use HSS in full
daylight. Here's a typical example where I use it on the D70:

(Quick gander at the EXIF data from last weekend...) Shooting a
backlit bird (a young egret) wading, with a 300mm lens at a distance
of about 15-20 ft under 4.00pm Florida Sunshine at 1/500th F11 (ISO
was set to a fast 650)

In this situation, the 1/500th is a minimum due to the rather wobbly
platform I was on (as was the tripod) and effective 450mm lens (Thus
the high ISO setting). The distance I have no control of, not wanting
to swim with the gators, so the flash either works at my 'forced'
exposure restrictions or it doesn't. I can't see HSS working here, the
distance is out of my control and power required would be too high.

HSS is also useful for bringing the GN of the flash WAY down when the
flash comp is not enough. 1/4000 and that flash is sucked dry and
probably falls on less than 5% of the film at any time during the shot.

...I'll take your word for it. I've yet to come across a situation
where a 3 stop -EV hasn't been enough, I've heard others complain
though.


A shutterbug article for those who are not convinced:
http://www.shutterbug.net/features/1100sb_using/


(A rear sync is useful to capture the motion at lower shutter speeds and
freeze the ambient movement at the end of the full frame exposure cycle).


Yes, and a rear curtain flash prevents the flash-flinching of fast
responding animals or children from being part of the exposure
(assumes camera doesn't use pre-flash for metering or anti-redeye
gizmo).

I shoot manual exp/manual flash when I want effects, so no-preflash. I
just got the Maxxum 7D and the ADI / pre-flash is very noticeable and
I'm wondering about the total shutter lag now.

Pre-flash in iTTL mode on the D70 annoys me for the same reason. When
using iTTL I now use the pre-metering method where you allow it to do
a pre-flash by stabbing the AE-L button and it remembers the required
exposure & power for as many shots you want to take at those settings.

--
Owamanga!