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#1
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Bayer filter removal
Is any company offering removal of the Bayer filter from a Nikon-mount
DSLR? Particularly the D40? (I suspect it may not be feasible due to the stacking order and how the microlenses, AA, IR cut, and Bayer are combined, and other issues, and I haven't been able to Google up much, but I thought asking might still turn something up.) I'm interested in a high-sensitivity B&W camera for low-light situations. |
#2
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Bayer filter removal
"David Dyer-Bennet" wrote in message t... Is any company offering removal of the Bayer filter from a Nikon-mount DSLR? Particularly the D40? (I suspect it may not be feasible due to the stacking order and how the microlenses, AA, IR cut, and Bayer are combined, and other issues, and I haven't been able to Google up much, but I thought asking might still turn something up.) I'm interested in a high-sensitivity B&W camera for low-light situations. Interesting idea. Would one necessarily lose the micro-lenses as well and would that mitigate against removal? I don't really know, by the way. Here is an interesting link that might be helpful: http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/d...gesensors.html |
#3
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Bayer filter removal
Charles Schuler wrote:
"David Dyer-Bennet" wrote in message t... Is any company offering removal of the Bayer filter from a Nikon-mount DSLR? Particularly the D40? (I suspect it may not be feasible due to the stacking order and how the microlenses, AA, IR cut, and Bayer are combined, and other issues, and I haven't been able to Google up much, but I thought asking might still turn something up.) I'm interested in a high-sensitivity B&W camera for low-light situations. Interesting idea. Would one necessarily lose the micro-lenses as well and would that mitigate against removal? I don't really know, by the way. Here is an interesting link that might be helpful: http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/d...gesensors.html Interesting, and had some detail I didn't know, thanks! Doesn't mention where the IR-block filter is in all that, either, or the optical anti-aliasing filter. I suspect it varies considerably. I suspect that the microlenses would be a major loss; but I suppose trying it with various lenses would be interesting. The worst complaints are about ultra-wide lenses, and I don't use them in the conditions I want this camera for. (I'm not *at all* sure that I'm prepared (mostly financially) to be the first experimenter here :-)). |
#4
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Bayer filter removal
"David Dyer-Bennet" wrote in message t... Charles Schuler wrote: "David Dyer-Bennet" wrote in message t... Is any company offering removal of the Bayer filter from a Nikon-mount DSLR? Particularly the D40? (I suspect it may not be feasible due to the stacking order and how the microlenses, AA, IR cut, and Bayer are combined, and other issues, and I haven't been able to Google up much, but I thought asking might still turn something up.) I'm interested in a high-sensitivity B&W camera for low-light situations. Interesting idea. Would one necessarily lose the micro-lenses as well and would that mitigate against removal? I don't really know, by the way. Here is an interesting link that might be helpful: http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/d...gesensors.html Interesting, and had some detail I didn't know, thanks! Doesn't mention where the IR-block filter is in all that, either, or the optical anti-aliasing filter. I suspect it varies considerably. I suspect that the microlenses would be a major loss; but I suppose trying it with various lenses would be interesting. The worst complaints are about ultra-wide lenses, and I don't use them in the conditions I want this camera for. (I'm not *at all* sure that I'm prepared (mostly financially) to be the first experimenter here :-)). The stacking technology of the various filters is an interesting issue. The IR filter must be near the top, at least in some cases, since one can find sources such as this one: http://www.abe.msstate.edu/~jwooten/camera/lense.html Now that digital cameras are enjoying rather brisk sales, I wonder if specialized models are near. Canon's astral model is but one indicator: http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/con...US-in-July.htm You want a B&W camera with the best possible sensitivity, and you are not alone. I'd guess it is coming soon. |
#5
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Bayer filter removal
"David Dyer-Bennet" schrieb im Newsbeitrag t... Is any company offering removal of the Bayer filter from a Nikon-mount DSLR? Particularly the D40? (I suspect it may not be feasible due to the stacking order and how the microlenses, AA, IR cut, and Bayer are combined, and other issues, and I haven't been able to Google up much, but I thought asking might still turn something up.) I'm interested in a high-sensitivity B&W camera for low-light situations. Certainly nobody will do that, Also you could easily buy a couple of D1 MK 3 's plus assorted lenses for the cost of doing that. It would be a more realistic approach to cool the sensor with liquid nitrogen (and float the camera with dry nitrogen to keep water out) to achieve a higher signal / noise ratio. A full frame sensor camera or a larger than full frame camera (like Mamyia) would be the easiest solution for achieving improved signal to noise ratio. In production multiple sensors are processed on a wafer (4", 6" or 200 mm) and only separated after they have run through all the processing steps (except for bonding). Even if a pin compatible black and white version of the original sensor would exist, it would need custom developed image processing (ASIC's and firmware) because processing black and white pixels can not use the same weighting used as for processing the signals from a Bayer matrix sensor. Recording in RAW and using a customized external converter program to obtain an image from that would be slightly easier - but probably not for any *.nef files, as these are not true RAW but store pre processed data. The camera display would also be pretty useless, but I did not have that on my film cameras and could still take pictures. |
#6
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Bayer filter removal
On Apr 13, 3:30 pm, "Charles Schuler"
wrote: "David Dyer-Bennet" wrote in message t... Is any company offering removal of the Bayer filter from a Nikon-mount DSLR? Particularly the D40? (I suspect it may not be feasible due to the stacking order and how the microlenses, AA, IR cut, and Bayer are combined, and other issues, and I haven't been able to Google up much, but I thought asking might still turn something up.) I'm interested in a high-sensitivity B&W camera for low-light situations. Interesting idea. Would one necessarily lose the micro-lenses as well and would that mitigate against removal? I don't really know, by the way. Here is an interesting link that might be helpful:http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/d...gesensors.html That is a *really* informative link, Charles. Thanks, man. It is pretty technical, but goddam thorough. -- YOP... |
#7
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Bayer filter removal
cgiorgio wrote:
"David Dyer-Bennet" schrieb im Newsbeitrag t... Is any company offering removal of the Bayer filter from a Nikon-mount DSLR? Particularly the D40? (I suspect it may not be feasible due to the stacking order and how the microlenses, AA, IR cut, and Bayer are combined, and other issues, and I haven't been able to Google up much, but I thought asking might still turn something up.) I'm interested in a high-sensitivity B&W camera for low-light situations. Certainly nobody will do that, Also you could easily buy a couple of D1 MK 3 's plus assorted lenses for the cost of doing that. I can't tell if you know more than me on this topic, or less. I don't believe that the Bayer filter is fabricated directly on the sensor as part of the manufacturing process in most cases, but I don't have a good specific source to point to, either. I do know that a number of places offer cameras with the IR-block filters removed, and there are instructions floating around for how to do that yourself in various models. The cost for the commercial versions is modest. It would be a more realistic approach to cool the sensor with liquid nitrogen (and float the camera with dry nitrogen to keep water out) to achieve a higher signal / noise ratio. A full frame sensor camera or a larger than full frame camera (like Mamyia) would be the easiest solution for achieving improved signal to noise ratio. I very much doubt that LN cooling is feasible today for a camera I could use to take photos at dimly-lit music parties. A larger-sensor camera would have lower noise, but it would use much slower lenses; this is why photojournalism and especially street photography migrated to 35mm in the first place. In production multiple sensors are processed on a wafer (4", 6" or 200 mm) and only separated after they have run through all the processing steps (except for bonding). Even if a pin compatible black and white version of the original sensor would exist, it would need custom developed image processing (ASIC's and firmware) because processing black and white pixels can not use the same weighting used as for processing the signals from a Bayer matrix sensor. Recording in RAW and using a customized external converter program to obtain an image from that would be slightly easier - but probably not for any *.nef files, as these are not true RAW but store pre processed data. The camera display would also be pretty useless, but I did not have that on my film cameras and could still take pictures. Digital IR photos are frequently taken by using a visible-light-blocking filter. This greatly reduces the sensitivity, but usable IR photos can be taken with most digital cameras this way. I believe the dyes in the Bayer filter are mostly transparent in the infrared (or at least all the colors are about the same density in the infrared). With P&S cameras, the preview is reasonably accurate, and looks mostly monochrome, as does the captured image. So I'm not at all sure that a rework of the firmware (or external processing using a true raw file) would be necessary to achieve usable B&W results. (I've shot infrared with an Epson 850Z and a Fuji S2 using the Hoya r72 visible-light-blocking filter). (A rework of the firmware or external RAW processing with a special B&W version of the software might give some real increase in resolution, though.) |
#8
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Bayer filter removal
"cgiorgio" wrote in -
online.com: Even if a pin compatible black and white version of the original sensor would exist, it would need custom developed image processing (ASIC's and firmware) because processing black and white pixels can not use the same weighting used as for processing the signals from a Bayer matrix sensor. All a firmware or hardware needs to do is use a certain WB setting to display the grey RAW data as grey RGB on the LCD, or in the JPEGs, and bias the metering. The only artifacts might be slight color fringing in high- frequency high-contrast content, when zoomed in sufficiently. If the camera already has B&W mode (intended for the CFA), that won't even happen. -- John P Sheehy |
#9
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Bayer filter removal
"David Dyer-Bennet" wrote: Is any company offering removal of the Bayer filter from a Nikon-mount DSLR? Particularly the D40? Unlikely. Although I've not looked into the Sony APS-C sensors, their P&S sensors build both the microlenses and color filters into the chip. Since even the slightest registration error would be a complete disaster, it's unlikely that the color filters are any different on the APS-C sensors. (I suspect it may not be feasible due to the stacking order and how the microlenses, AA, IR cut, and Bayer are combined, and other issues, and I haven't been able to Google up much, but I thought asking might still turn something up.) I'm interested in a high-sensitivity B&W camera for low-light situations. Since the color filters are largely transparent to IR, the best you get is a reasonably sensitive IR camera by removing the IR cut filter (and maybe the low-pass filter). High on my wish list is a dSLR with interchangeable sensors. It should be possible. A 5DII with both a 16MP color sensor and an 8MP B&W sensor would be seriously neat. I'd certainly cough up between US$700 and US$1000 for the 8MP sensor. David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan |
#10
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Bayer filter removal
David J. Littleboy wrote:
"David Dyer-Bennet" wrote: Is any company offering removal of the Bayer filter from a Nikon-mount DSLR? Particularly the D40? Unlikely. Although I've not looked into the Sony APS-C sensors, their P&S sensors build both the microlenses and color filters into the chip. Since even the slightest registration error would be a complete disaster, it's unlikely that the color filters are any different on the APS-C sensors. And that's the answer I'm getting from people who actually perform conversions, too. I'm not surprised; but I was hoping my vague ideas were *wrong*. Oh well. (I suspect it may not be feasible due to the stacking order and how the microlenses, AA, IR cut, and Bayer are combined, and other issues, and I haven't been able to Google up much, but I thought asking might still turn something up.) I'm interested in a high-sensitivity B&W camera for low-light situations. Since the color filters are largely transparent to IR, the best you get is a reasonably sensitive IR camera by removing the IR cut filter (and maybe the low-pass filter). That has its own temptations, but completely different ones. And not so tempting for me (though I've done IR a little with my last two digicams). High on my wish list is a dSLR with interchangeable sensors. It should be possible. A 5DII with both a 16MP color sensor and an 8MP B&W sensor would be seriously neat. I'd certainly cough up between US$700 and US$1000 for the 8MP sensor. Something like that would be really nice. |
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