Nikon shifts production to China. CHINA!

David J Taylor added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

RichA wrote:
[]
What if tomorrow, the U.S. said, "we are going to re-patriate
the camera industry." And they did it. We would have to get
used to paying $800-$1000 for entry level DSLRs. My
response? So f------ what? We sure won't be much worse off,
people would have to do with less, how horrible!!

Managing with less might not be a bad idea - personal
borrowing has been too high for many years.

Borrowing by either individuals or governmental agencies isn't
the problem, it is living WELL beyond one's means. People seem to
think they can buy expensive houses or expensive cars and other
big ticket items on a small salary and at the same time run up
huge charge card bills which they juggle by getting more of them
and transferring balances around. But, for people, eventually
they must pay the piper.

Small governments like cities, counties, and until recently even
states usually kept things pretty much under control through
balanced budget laws or constitutions. But, our Federal
government literally has the power to print money, which means to
hold Treasury auctions to sell NEW dept. Just under 8 years ago
when President Bush was inaugerated, our national debt was around
$4.7T with a "T". Just after the TARP (Troubled Asset Relief
Program) was passed to the tune of $850B, the new debt had risen
to about twice that, the big difference being unfunded spending
for the War on Terror. President Bush learned a valuable object
lesson from his father who lost his job when "read me lips, no
new taxes" bit him in the ass.

It is VERY difficult to track this stuff because of a complete
lack of transparency in our government, made far worse under the
current Administation, but I believe that RIGHT NOW, our debt is
north of $11T! That is almost triple in less than 8 years and has
(apparently) gone up another trillion and a half just in the last
3 months!

I don't think we are headed for hyper-inflation but eventually
SOMEBODY has to pay for this, but it won't be us.

As for reconstituting the camera industry, I don't believe it is
possible no matter how it is done, nor do I think it is even
desirable. No one wants to pay significantly higher prices for a
commodity they would surely perceive went up just for them awful
dumb-ass American executives and the greedy unions, right? It is
exactly the same across ALL the major manufacturing industries
that have been lost. There is certainly TRUTH to be said for
excesses and mistakes by corporate executives and for organized
labor. I defend neither.

I just wonder when any given formerly democratic, formerly
capitalistic country's people will wake up, that ALL their jobs
are under exactly the same gun. We cannot owe tens of trillions
of dollars to foreign banks and governments who close their
markets to our goods and services while at the same time allowing
cheap and often dangerous goods to have unfettered access to
ours.

David, I'm speaking mainly of the United States here but I
suspect your country is at least similar. Where we ALL want to
admit it or not, ALL of our incomes and welfare is to some degree
interlocked since that is how a broad economy functions. To do
otherwise is to wink at high unemployment rates and an acceptance
of eroding incomes and even a rising percentage of people below
the poverty line.

Can we really put the genie back in the bottle, manufacturing
wise? I doubt it. But, perhaps we can at least STOP the erosion
of American jobs and further declines in the middle class.
However, I'm not at all convinced that either of our two major
political parties even understand this, much less have the
courage to fix it.

What do you think it's going to be like if Obama caves in to
the enviroKOOKs?

I'm sure the people have chosen based on sound reasoning and
discussion of policies.

I don't want to turn this NG or this discussion any further
political than it already is, except to say that WHATEVER
initiatives our new president undertakes or the one after him or
the one after him or her, eventually they WILL have to pay for
them.

What I would like to see about environmental issues is a
personal priority list based on sound scientific reasons and
well-supported statistics. Rather than giving me ten things to
do just give me the most important one. Otherwise how am I
supposed to decide which action to take first?

I only wish that it were possible to do as you suggest, David. As
I have said before, like any controversy the global warming one
is filled with ideology both from the Left and the Right which
tells me that NEITHER is right and NEITHER is wrong, but the
truth is somewhere in the middle. So, to whatever extent anyone
tries to fix things, I hope they will consider just two things:
1) don't mess up some other part of the environment trying to fix
the carbon footprint issue and 2) figure out some rational,
reasonable method of paying for what is estimated to be a multi-
TRILLION dollar effort over the next 20 to maybe 50 years.

Have a happy Monday, David!

--
HP, aka Jerry

"How do you have patience for people who claim they love America,
but clearly can't stand Americans? – Sydney Ellen Wade to
President Andrew Shepherd in the movie "The American President

In message , HEMI-Powered
writes
David J Taylor added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...

RichA wrote:
[]
What if tomorrow, the U.S. said, "we are going to re-patriate
the camera industry." And they did it. We would have to get
used to paying $800-$1000 for entry level DSLRs. My
response? So f------ what? We sure won't be much worse off,
people would have to do with less, how horrible!!

Managing with less might not be a bad idea - personal
borrowing has been too high for many years.

Borrowing by either individuals or governmental agencies isn't
the problem, it is living WELL beyond one's means. People seem to
think they can buy expensive houses or expensive cars and other
big ticket items on a small salary and at the same time run up
huge charge card bills which they juggle by getting more of them
and transferring balances around. But, for people, eventually
they must pay the piper.

It is not just that. The life style will have to change too even for
those living within their means. Many parts of the US are using more
electrical power and water than they can sustain for more than a year or
two.

balanced budget laws or constitutions. But, our Federal
government literally has the power to print money,

Which becomes worthless.

which means to
hold Treasury auctions to sell NEW dept. Just under 8 years ago
when President Bush was inaugerated, our national debt was around
$4.7T with a "T".

It is VERY difficult to track this stuff because of a complete
lack of transparency in our government, made far worse under the
current Administation, but I believe that RIGHT NOW, our debt is
north of $11T! That is almost triple in less than 8 years and has
(apparently) gone up another trillion and a half just in the last
3 months!

The problem for the US is the Chinese and Arabs (followed by Canada and
Mexico ) own most of that debt. When they say "jump"......

As for reconstituting the camera industry, I don't believe it is
possible no matter how it is done, nor do I think it is even
desirable.

Not possible, you need a company, R&D (expensive) and then products that
people will buy.. Any you have a Soviet style economy...

No one wants to pay significantly higher prices for a
commodity they would surely perceive went up just for them awful
dumb-ass American executives and the greedy unions, right?

Correct.

I just wonder when any given formerly democratic, formerly
capitalistic country's people will wake up, that ALL their jobs
are under exactly the same gun.

Sort of. The US is in a worse position than many

We cannot owe tens of trillions
of dollars to foreign banks and governments who close their
markets to our goods and services while at the same time allowing
cheap and often dangerous goods to have unfettered access to
ours.

However as the foreign banks and governments now effectively own the US
you are not in a position to tell them anything.

David, I'm speaking mainly of the United States here but I
suspect your country is at least similar.

Yes but the UK moved from manufacturing several decades ago, does not
have the same debt and is not spending nearly as much on war so we are
in less of a mess.

Where we ALL want to
admit it or not, ALL of our incomes and welfare is to some degree
interlocked since that is how a broad economy functions

Yes.

Can we really put the genie back in the bottle, manufacturing
wise? I doubt it.

Not now.

But, perhaps we can at least STOP the erosion
of American jobs and further declines in the middle class.

Who cares? Not interested in stopping the erosion of US jobs. That is
the problem the US has. Over the last 20 years and more specifically in
the last 8 the US has ****ed off so many countries it has no real
friends left.

Worse still the countries the US media has ridiculed and taunted The
Arabs and the Chinese own the most of the US

However, I'm not at all convinced that either of our two major
political parties even understand this, much less have the
courage to fix it.

I think the Democrats seem to have a better grasp of the situation BUT I
am not sure if the US public will like the required medicine.


--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Chris H added these comments in the current discussion du jour
....
Borrowing by either individuals or governmental agencies isn't
the problem, it is living WELL beyond one's means. People seem
to think they can buy expensive houses or expensive cars and
other big ticket items on a small salary and at the same time
run up huge charge card bills which they juggle by getting
more of them and transferring balances around. But, for
people, eventually they must pay the piper.

It is not just that. The life style will have to change too
even for those living within their means. Many parts of the
US are using more electrical power and water than they can
sustain for more than a year or two.

I think the rub is that many/most capitalistic economies pretty
much depend on constantly expanding consumer spending, so exactly
as the economy in so many countries have found out starting with
the bull**** of the subprime mortgages in the US, by the time
both people and the gubmint figured it out, the country had
headed down so fast that only the technical definition of a
recession hadn't yet been met back in October.

So, the problem NOW is that people CANNOT buy on credit any
longer due to the knee-jerk reaction of lending institutions to
the credit crunch so that even cars from the Japanese, Koreans,
and Germans aren't selling much better than from Ford, GM and
Chrysler, to name just one market segment where credit is a
necessity.

Back to overall deficit spending, the classic definiton of a
recession is two quarters of negative economic growth in a row,
which is exactly what is happening right now. Damn hard to shot
for Christmas if you're laid off and your credit cards are all
maxed out plus your card bank has reduced your credit limit!

balanced budget laws or constitutions. But, our Federal
government literally has the power to print money,

Which becomes worthless.

I think you may have snipped where I said I don't fear hyper-
inflation as in the German Weimar Republic following WWI or
Zimbawre today, but yes, the American dollar HAS lost
considerable dollar. If you don't know, you may be interested to
hear that the REAL reason that Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson
was so bent on a bailout for Fannie and Freddie is that the
Chinese literally demanded that the US back their debt of the
Chinese would sell their T-Bills on the world auction market and
literally destroy our dollar. Whew!

which means to
hold Treasury auctions to sell NEW dept. Just under 8 years
ago when President Bush was inaugerated, our national debt was
around $4.7T with a "T".

It is VERY difficult to track this stuff because of a complete
lack of transparency in our government, made far worse under
the current Administation, but I believe that RIGHT NOW, our
debt is north of $11T! That is almost triple in less than 8
years and has (apparently) gone up another trillion and a half
just in the last 3 months!

The problem for the US is the Chinese and Arabs (followed by
Canada and Mexico ) own most of that debt. When they say
"jump"......

True enough. OUr total foreign-owned debt by all branches of
government here and business is over $17T and rising. But, before
you start citing other countries who have this whipped, they
don't. Japan is injecting capital as is Canada, the UK, France,
Germany, Holland, Italy, even China has a gigantic capital
infusion and bank bail-out plan similar to our TARP and TALF in
place. This is a WORLD problem, which makes trying to re-start
manufacturing in ANY country all that more difficult.

As for reconstituting the camera industry, I don't believe it
is possible no matter how it is done, nor do I think it is
even desirable.

Not possible, you need a company, R&D (expensive) and then
products that people will buy.. Any you have a Soviet style
economy...

I agree. Even if our government tried to prop up prices and
provided the capital, people would still want to buy foreign
because quality and features are better, and attempting to use
protectionism would result in a run on the dollar and massive
trade retailiation long-term coupled with an immediate shortage
of nearly every commodity in our markets.

No one wants to pay significantly higher prices for a
commodity they would surely perceive went up just for them
awful dumb-ass American executives and the greedy unions,
right?

Correct.

Note that I said "perceive". It isn't necessisarily true but
everyone would think so. Example: in the big debate over giving
even $14B to GM and Chrysler, it should be noted that while the
Detroit Three dropped sales in November in the 35-47% range
depending on company, so did the Japanese Three of Honda, Toyota,
and Nissan. Plus, of all the foreign owned car companies selling
here, NONE moved up and ALL moved down double digits. So, it
isn't at all that the Americans suddenly got stupid by building
too many trucks and SUVs.

And, ALL the world's car makers have got to be apopletic right
now. Just as they started to turn around their fleets to make
smaller, more fuel efficient cars and trucks, what does gas do?
Moves from $4.25 to $1.50 from just July to December! So, people
who still can buy a new car are doing just what you'd expect,
selling the little **** buckets and going back to bigger is
better.

I just wonder when any given formerly democratic, formerly
capitalistic country's people will wake up, that ALL their
jobs are under exactly the same gun.

Sort of. The US is in a worse position than many

I don't know enough to argue intelligently, but I would be VERY
suprised if the Socialist countries of the world, like the EU,
really are that much better off. This much I do know: The US
government consumes less than 40% of GDP while the EU averages
some 55% and is rising, so money to help people weather the storm
likely isn't even available.

We cannot owe tens of trillions
of dollars to foreign banks and governments who close their
markets to our goods and services while at the same time
allowing cheap and often dangerous goods to have unfettered
access to ours.

However as the foreign banks and governments now effectively
own the US you are not in a position to tell them anything.

You Canadian and European Socialists crack me up! Do you really
think that YOUR economic system is that much superior that you
can lecture us? Don't make me vomit.

David, I'm speaking mainly of the United States here but I
suspect your country is at least similar.

Yes but the UK moved from manufacturing several decades ago,
does not have the same debt and is not spending nearly as much
on war so we are in less of a mess.

Your national debt as a percet of GDP is larger than ours, not
smaller, my friend. It is just that it hasn't risen so much so
quickly largely because you've not yet booked the cost of YOUR
bailouts, which if balanced against your economy which is less
than 1/5 the size of ours is more than twice as large and
growing. Don't believe me, ask Aardvark, he's an expert on taxes,
bailouts, and their relationship to GDP.

Can we really put the genie back in the bottle, manufacturing
wise? I doubt it.

Not now.

Not ever in my view, and you can't either. Hell, half your
aircraft and car industry is already owned by the government so
you are hardly in a position to show yourselves off as a shining
example of capitalism!

But, perhaps we can at least STOP the erosion of American
jobs and further declines in the middle class.

Who cares? Not interested in stopping the erosion of US jobs.
That is the problem the US has. Over the last 20 years and
more specifically in the last 8 the US has ****ed off so many
countries it has no real friends left.

Maybe you don't care, but laid off Americans DO care, I assure
you!

Worse still the countries the US media has ridiculed and
taunted The Arabs and the Chinese own the most of the US

I'm not going to respond to foolish talk that is well into
xenophobia. Were it not for the United States, YOU would not have
a strategic military to protect you so be careful of biting the
hand that feeds you!

However, I'm not at all convinced that either of our two major
political parties even understand this, much less have the
courage to fix it.

I think the Democrats seem to have a better grasp of the
situation BUT I am not sure if the US public will like the
required medicine.

I think that before you try to fix our political and economic
system, you need to un-Socialize your own and turn the seats of
power back to the people and give up your failed notions of
wealth redistribution and social engineering. Those last two are
the BIG problems for our Democrats, as they have never understood
either world history or world economics.

--
HP, aka Jerry

"How do you have patience for people who claim they love America,
but clearly can't stand Americans? – Sydney Ellen Wade to
President Andrew Shepherd in the movie "The American President

In message , HEMI-Powered
writes

Sort of. The US is in a worse position than many

I don't know enough to argue intelligently, but I would be VERY
suprised if the Socialist countries of the world, like the EU,
really are that much better off.

Many of the EU countries are further to the right than the US

I'm not going to respond to foolish talk that is well into
xenophobia. Were it not for the United States, YOU would not have
a strategic military to protect you so be careful of biting the
hand that feeds you!

The US has not protected the UK at all. Certainly not in the last 60
years. THAT IS A FACT. The rest is US xenophobic propaganda.

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

In message , HEMI-Powered
writes
And, ALL the world's car makers have got to be apopletic right
now.

Their not. In fact the Japanese have opened up a new plant in Ottawa
things have slowed down but the Japanese are preparing to fill the void
left by one or two of the US Big three

Just as they started to turn around their fleets to make
smaller, more fuel efficient cars and trucks, what does gas do?
Moves from $4.25 to $1.50 from just July to December!

That's short term

So, people
who still can buy a new car are doing just what you'd expect,
selling the little **** buckets and going back to bigger is
better.

Maybe in the US but not in the UK . More to the point the US cars will
not meet the new European legislation but the Japanese cars do already.

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/