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#11
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Aren't rechargeables for high current applications?
On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 06:05:52 GMT, John Doe
wrote: "Phil Allison" wrote: "John Doe" ( snip load of top posted, puerile drivel) Appears to be a same dialect. Okay, so I see Phil is obsessed with Sylvia in the Australian legal group. So maybe Phil and Rod are the same, or brothers, or maybe bedfellows. ** Anyone as colossally stupid as YOU pal, needs to develop a thicker hide. Do you have a Crocodile Dundee complex, Phil? **** off - fool. Are you in a movie, Phil? You should tale pity on Phil. His sheepfriend just chucked him! ..... Phil Path: flpi141.ffdc.sbc.com!flph199.ffdc.sbc.com!prodigy. com!flph200.ffdc.sbc.com!prodigy.net!newshub.sdsu. edu!feeder.erje.net!news.musoftware.de!wum.musoftw are.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail From: "Phil Allison" Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital,sci.electronics.design Subject: Aren't rechargeables for high current applications? Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:14:50 +1100 Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: X-Trace: individual.net QEqRNBF4DyoFblIGvQA7LQqb4IYBI4RPSkwLLSIgMwLtbb9sho Cancel-Lock: sha1:1aTeG07Z/PcoYTXsuACqu4vFrtk= X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Xref: prodigy.net rec.photo.digital:1516072 sci.electronics.design:947179 X-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 00:14:53 EST (flpi141.ffdc.sbc.com) |
#12
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Aren't rechargeables for high current applications?
On Thu, 4 Dec 2008 18:18:10 -0800, BobW wrote:
Low leakage NiMH batteries are pretty cheap now, on sale they're around $1.50, so they're only about 2x the price of name brand AA alkalines at Costco. Leave it to SMS, the so-called battery "expert" to inflate prices of the AA batteries that he loathes, when he somehow always can find much lower Li-Ion prices than the rest of us can. Name brand AA alkalines, such as those from Sanyo, Panasonic, RayOVac, Maxell and others can often be found in larger camera & electronic stores, supermarkets and Rite-Aid type stores for prices ranging from 20 to 25 cents each, not the 75 cents claimed by the "expert". Some of these stores have permanently low battery prices. With others you wait for sales (Pathmark == frequent, Rite-Aid == infrequent). If you don't plan ahead and only buy 2AA or 4AA blister packed alkalines as needed, then yes, you pay higher battery prices. I really like these so-called hybrid NiMH batteries. I use the Hybrio brand. Certainly for cameras, the alkalines are terrible due to the high current demands. It's nice being able to grab a camera that I haven't used for months and have it work. I could never do that with conventional NiMH batteries. I'm even using them in my flashlights now that I know they won't be dead after sitting for a long time. Low self-discharge NiMH cells such as Hybrios, Hybrids, Eneloops, etc. are excellent and the best types for many purposes, but not for all. You can't make that generic statement, that alkalines are terrible for use in cameras because there's a tremendous difference in the power demands of different cameras. The worst possible case is when shots are taken with the flash and the LCD is used. As you suspect, some cameras do very poorly when powered by alkalines, but many (in cameras from Canon, Fuji, Nikon, etc.) can provide hundreds of shots from a set of alkalines even when the flash is used, up to and beyond 1,500 shots when the flash is not used. Bogus battery information can also color your expectations. One example is Canon's A570IS camera. Canon's manual states that it should be able to get 120 shots (CIPA test, using flash and LCD) and 400 shots (no flash and using viewfinder) from a pair of AA alkaline cells. I tested that camera and got even more shots than Canon claimed. SMS on the other hand frequently stated in this newsgroup that the A570IS did worse than this by an order of magnitude. Even today his battery data website claims : I lent an AA powered camera (Canon A570IS) to a relative that tried to use alkaline AA batteries while on a cruise. She reported getting about ten pictures per set of batteries. When I inquired if this was normal on rec.photo.digital I got a slew of responses and every one of them reported similar results with alkaline batteries. Whether bogus information or a blatant lie, the responses weren't similar and unanimous. IIRC, he also stated that she then purchased new alkalines and got the same terrible battery life. This couldn't happen unless that particular camera was defective, and it's very unlikely that it was, since he said he'd check the camera when it was returned, but he never reported any findings. And despite the above quote, which if true would indicate an unacceptable camera with possibly the worst battery performance ever, SMS has since recommended the A570IS in this newsgroup many times. As you say, the hybrid type NiMH batteries are good choices for flashlights, but with two caveats. The first is that if the flashlight user waits for the light to dim before recharging the batteries, there's a chance that one or more cells might become reverse-cell damaged. The more cells that are used, the greater the possibility. Two cell flashlights should be safe, unless they're the more expensive types using voltage regulators. Flashlights using four or more cells provide the greatest risk. The second is that for emergency use, alkalines provide a good warning that the batteries need to be replaced because of their slow, gradual voltage decline. When NiMH batteries become depleted, the light falloff can be extremely rapid, giving you little time to find a set of replacement batteries. For most people using flashlights around the home or auto though, this shouldn't be a significant concern. |
#13
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Aren't rechargeables for high current applications?
ASAAR wrote:
[] Low self-discharge NiMH cells such as Hybrios, Hybrids, Eneloops, etc. are excellent and the best types for many purposes, but not for all. You can't make that generic statement, that alkalines are terrible for use in cameras because there's a tremendous difference in the power demands of different cameras. The worst possible case is when shots are taken with the flash and the LCD is used. As you suspect, some cameras do very poorly when powered by alkalines, but many (in cameras from Canon, Fuji, Nikon, etc.) can provide hundreds of shots from a set of alkalines even when the flash is used, up to and beyond 1,500 shots when the flash is not used. How well do 2000mAh Eneloops stand up to fast charging? I have a so-called 1 hour charger which has a stated charge current of 2A, and negative delta-V protection. David |
#14
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Aren't rechargeables for high current applications?
On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 13:55:04 GMT, David J Taylor wrote:
Low self-discharge NiMH cells such as Hybrios, Hybrids, Eneloops, etc. are excellent and the best types for many purposes, but not for all. You can't make that generic statement, that alkalines are terrible for use in cameras because there's a tremendous difference in the power demands of different cameras. The worst possible case is when shots are taken with the flash and the LCD is used. As you suspect, some cameras do very poorly when powered by alkalines, but many (in cameras from Canon, Fuji, Nikon, etc.) can provide hundreds of shots from a set of alkalines even when the flash is used, up to and beyond 1,500 shots when the flash is not used. How well do 2000mAh Eneloops stand up to fast charging? I have a so-called 1 hour charger which has a stated charge current of 2A, and negative delta-V protection. I can't say because I haven't used my fast (30 minute & 60 minute, neg. delta-V) chargers with Eneloops and other low self-discharge NiMH cells. My guess, though, is that they'll do at least as well as standard NiMH cells and possibly better. This is based on two reasons. First, when I first purchased them, the manufacturer's literature stated that they could be charged with any "well designed" battery charger, and there was no indication that slower chargers would be preferred. The second reason is based on what a number of photographers in DPReview's Lighting Technique forum have said about using Eneloops in hot shoe mounted flash units. They report that despite the lower capacity (2,000 mAh vs 2,700mAh), Eneloops provide as many flashes per charge as the higher capacity standard NiMH cells. They've thought that the reason is that the lower internal resistance results in less energy wasted in battery heat losses, and have also noted that this allows the flashes to be used more rapidly without causing the flash units to shut down. This lower internal resistance may also reduce the internal heating of Eneloops while they're being charged. This is only conjecture, as I haven't heard of anyone testing this hypothesis. So far there I haven't used quick chargers with my Eneloops and Hybrids, but if there was a need for it, I'd have no qualms about doing so. |
#15
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Aren't rechargeables for high current applications?
On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 01:33:23 +0000, John Doe wrote:
Since the worth of a NiMH rechargeable battery is determined by how many alkalines you avoid buying and disposing of, what's the point of low leakage current NiMHs? In other words. Why would you care if the NiMH still has a charge after one year? Doesn't that negate the value of being able to recharge the battery hundreds of times? Why not use an alkaline if it needs to last for one year? Or, is ordinary/current NiMH leakage current problematic even for high current uses, and battery makers are trying to correct that? FWIW, I'll never waste my money on NiMH's again. I bought a "smart" charger that came with 4 NiMH's once, and was kind of impressed. Unfortunately, my camera (a Fuji) has a terrible current drain when it's off, presumably to keep the RTC up. So, I'd pick up the cam, turn it on, and the NiMHs were dead. So, I'd get the next pair off its shelf, slap the discharged pair in the charger, and be on my merry way. Then, freshly charged, bu thaving sat for a couple of weeks, they were dead. Finally one day, I had no charged NiMHs - I "charged" 4 of them, and NONE OF THEM would make the camera go. I mean, pulled them right out of the charger, put them in the camera, and nothing, like their shelf life was zero. So I trashed the whole lot, bought a couple of AA alkalines, and they're still going after almost a year. BTW, I've never heard of alkalines having a "high internal resistance" - IME, they're almost as hot as Nicads. Good Luck! Rich |
#16
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Aren't rechargeables for high current applications?
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#17
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Aren't rechargeables for high current applications?
ASAAR wrote:
[] So far there I haven't used quick chargers with my Eneloops and Hybrids, but if there was a need for it, I'd have no qualms about doing so. Thanks for that - your observation and conclusions make sense to me. I have become sufficiently dissatisfied with the poor shelf-life on conventional Ni-MH cells that I have located a UK supplier (none of the normal places I use had them, but Amazon did), and ordered a set to try. Both of the devices where I might use the cells are very intermittent use devices, so long charge retention is important. I'll keep a careful finger on the temperature at the first charge, providing the cells don't explode first! I was unable to locate a manufacturer's data sheet with recommended charge rates, and that was annoying. Cheers, David |
#18
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Aren't rechargeables for high current applications?
John Devereux wrote:
[] I gather a lot of the D cells have AA's inside. I thought that most D Ni-MH cells were made like that? At least, all I've ever seen. Reputable makes. David |
#19
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Aren't rechargeables for high current applications?
Rich Grise wrote:
On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 01:33:23 +0000, John Doe wrote: Since the worth of a NiMH rechargeable battery is determined by how many alkalines you avoid buying and disposing of, what's the point of low leakage current NiMHs? In other words. Why would you care if the NiMH still has a charge after one year? Doesn't that negate the value of being able to recharge the battery hundreds of times? Why not use an alkaline if it needs to last for one year? Or, is ordinary/current NiMH leakage current problematic even for high current uses, and battery makers are trying to correct that? FWIW, I'll never waste my money on NiMH's again. I bought a "smart" charger that came with 4 NiMH's once, and was kind of impressed. Unfortunately, my camera (a Fuji) has a terrible current drain when it's off, presumably to keep the RTC up. So, I'd pick up the cam, turn it on, and the NiMHs were dead. So, I'd get the next pair off its shelf, slap the discharged pair in the charger, and be on my merry way. Then, freshly charged, bu thaving sat for a couple of weeks, they were dead. Finally one day, I had no charged NiMHs - I "charged" 4 of them, and NONE OF THEM would make the camera go. I mean, pulled them right out of the charger, put them in the camera, and nothing, like their shelf life was zero. So I trashed the whole lot, bought a couple of AA alkalines, and they're still going after almost a year. BTW, I've never heard of alkalines having a "high internal resistance" - IME, they're almost as hot as Nicads. Good Luck! Rich Most people seem to be aware of alkalines having a higher internal resistance then either NiMH or NiCD. Since literally millions of people are happily using NiMH in their cameras, it might occur to you that you have a problem with the camera. My guess would be it's unduly sensitive to the lower voltage of NiMH, but one would need to do further testing. Dave Cohen |
#20
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Aren't rechargeables for high current applications?
Rich Grise wrote:
On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 01:33:23 +0000, John Doe wrote: Since the worth of a NiMH rechargeable battery is determined by how many alkalines you avoid buying and disposing of, what's the point of low leakage current NiMHs? In other words. Why would you care if the NiMH still has a charge after one year? Doesn't that negate the value of being able to recharge the battery hundreds of times? Why not use an alkaline if it needs to last for one year? Or, is ordinary/current NiMH leakage current problematic even for high current uses, and battery makers are trying to correct that? FWIW, I'll never waste my money on NiMH's again. I bought a "smart" charger that came with 4 NiMH's once, and was kind of impressed. Unfortunately, my camera (a Fuji) has a terrible current drain when it's off, presumably to keep the RTC up. So, I'd pick up the cam, turn it on, and the NiMHs were dead. So, I'd get the next pair off its shelf, slap the discharged pair in the charger, and be on my merry way. Then, freshly charged, bu thaving sat for a couple of weeks, they were dead. Finally one day, I had no charged NiMHs - I "charged" 4 of them, and NONE OF THEM would make the camera go. I mean, pulled them right out of the charger, put them in the camera, and nothing, like their shelf life was zero. Sounds to me like you have a crap charger. So I trashed the whole lot, bought a couple of AA alkalines, and they're still going after almost a year. BTW, I've never heard of alkalines having a "high internal resistance" - IME, they're almost as hot as Nicads. Good Luck! Rich -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
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