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Digital cameras hold value?



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 2nd 04, 07:29 AM
David J. Littleboy
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Default Digital cameras hold value?


"Stacey" wrote:
MikeWhy wrote:

I think you're just being daft. The $5000 didn't pay for solid

mechanicals
or optics. It paid for the pioneering R&D. My father bought one of the
first TI SR-50 calculators when I was in high school. Today, simple four
function calculators are trade show throw aways; nobody even wants them,
let alone are willing to pay for them. By way of further analogy, how

much
would you pay today for an original brick car phone?



I'm being daft? Of course the $5000 wasn't buying solid mechaincals or
optics. You think the $1000+ digicam you buy today is any different?

People
are raving about those digital rebels but in 6 months to a year will be a
"dinasour" that people will laugh about anyone trying to -seriously- use
one.


Paying US$5000 for a digital camera for anyone without compelling need for
the turnaround time is quite silly, but the Rebel at US$900 is quite
different.

The Rebel is a lot better in every way than ISO 400 and faster films, so
it's providing significant advantages for a lot of what people use 35mm for
(and twice over for folks who like telephoto lenses). Also, if one shoots
regularly, the 300D will pay for itself in film and processing costs quite
quickly. Two rolls a week and it's free in a year.

So the Rebel is an extremely sensible camera for a lot of people, even if
they replace it with a new model almost immediately.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan


  #12  
Old March 2nd 04, 08:21 AM
MikeWhy
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Default Digital cameras hold value?

"Stacey" wrote in message
...
I'm being daft? Of course the $5000 wasn't buying solid mechaincals or
optics. You think the $1000+ digicam you buy today is any different?

People
are raving about those digital rebels but in 6 months to a year will be a
"dinasour" that people will laugh about anyone trying to -seriously- use
one.


Or just stubborn. :-)

I get 8x10s cleaner than 35mm. That's a meaningful and lasting hallmark; it
won't be obsolete any time soon.

Mine already pumped more than 8000 shots and ate zero in consumables. If I
throw it out right this moment, it cost less than equivalent footage in
processed 35mm film plus a film SLR's residual salvage. I came out ahead!
Mulch on that for a while. Printing the good ones, though, still costs
plenty.

OTOH, I have on the other screen a scan from a 4x5 trannie. There's
something magical in film's tones that digital just can't match, probably
will never match. It's not just the tonal scale or range, and there's no
grain to speak of, and I can't put a finger or name on it. I'm not ready to
give up on film altogether. (He
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2142849. I feel stupid sharing a
film test with you, and I doubt you'll be moved by it the same way I am.
It's not even my most favorite view of the house.)

  #13  
Old March 2nd 04, 01:15 PM
Mxsmanic
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Default Digital cameras hold value?

MikeWhy writes:

OTOH, I have on the other screen a scan from a 4x5 trannie. There's
something magical in film's tones that digital just can't match, probably
will never match. It's not just the tonal scale or range, and there's no
grain to speak of, and I can't put a finger or name on it. I'm not ready to
give up on film altogether. (He
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2142849. I feel stupid sharing a
film test with you, and I doubt you'll be moved by it the same way I am.


It's the kind of clean image that you feel you can reach in and touch.

I think such images come mostly from film because they require extremely
high resolution and good dynamic range, and that is really hard to get
digitally right now. Film isn't magic in itself; it's just the best
available option when quality is the most important consideration.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
  #14  
Old March 2nd 04, 02:30 PM
Neil Gould
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Default Digital cameras hold value?

Recently, David J. Littleboy posted:


Also,
if one shoots regularly, the 300D will pay for itself in film and
processing costs quite quickly. Two rolls a week and it's free in a
year.

This is only true under incomparable circumstances. You would have to get
prints of all your film shots, and print almost none of your digital
shots. If you shoot b/w and develop yourself, or only get color negatives
developed, then the cost of shooting two rolls of film per week is quite a
bit lower than the cost of a 300D. OTOH, if you get 50% of those digital
shots printed larger than 4x6, the cost of owning and using your 300D is
quite a bit higher than most 35mm film cameras.

I'm with Stacey on this one. Digital does not hold its value at this point
in time. There may come a time when the cost of purchase and useful life
will come together to change the economics of this equation. But, that
time isn't now.

Neil



  #15  
Old March 2nd 04, 02:57 PM
Raphael Bustin
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Default Digital cameras hold value?

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 13:15:41 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote:

MikeWhy writes:

OTOH, I have on the other screen a scan from a 4x5 trannie. There's
something magical in film's tones that digital just can't match, probably
will never match. It's not just the tonal scale or range, and there's no
grain to speak of, and I can't put a finger or name on it. I'm not ready to
give up on film altogether. (He
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2142849. I feel stupid sharing a
film test with you, and I doubt you'll be moved by it the same way I am.


It's the kind of clean image that you feel you can reach in and touch.

I think such images come mostly from film because they require extremely
high resolution and good dynamic range, and that is really hard to get
digitally right now. Film isn't magic in itself; it's just the best
available option when quality is the most important consideration.



Comparing 4x5 to current "prosumer" digital isn't quite
fair now, is it? If time were money, 4x5 is way, way behind
the game. LF involves a huge expense and effort for each
useable image. Like, for starters, $3 or $4 worth of film
and processing cost for each click of the shutter.

Steve Johnson decided back in 1994 that a scanning
back clamped to a 4x5 produced better images than film.

I personally can't afford to go that route. I do admit that
4x5 is another whole trip entirely, and I'm quite enjoying
my initial experiences with LF. But digital capture is not
to be lightly dismissed.

Personally, I'm beginning to be concerned about the
continued availability (and limited choices) in color LF
film. As it stands right now there seem to be exactly
two brands to choose from, Kodak and Fuji. This
does not inspire hope and confidence for the future
of this medium.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
  #16  
Old March 2nd 04, 09:18 PM
Gregory W Blank
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Default Digital cameras hold value?

In article ,
Raphael Bustin wrote:

As it stands right now there seem to be exactly
two brands to choose from, Kodak and Fuji. This
does not inspire hope and confidence for the future
of this medium.


Then again your exeprience is admittedly shorter
in history, Kodak and Fuji have been "the" suppliers
of 4x5 color materials for sometime. It was Agfa's choice
not to compete.

For every doom sayer there may be 10 photographers
happily shooting 4x5 and not worrying whether film
is going to be discontinued. If it happens it happens
life goes on.
--
LF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

  #17  
Old March 2nd 04, 09:19 PM
Mxsmanic
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Default Digital cameras hold value?

Raphael Bustin writes:

Comparing 4x5 to current "prosumer" digital isn't quite
fair now, is it?


Why not? Film can be bought in 4x5 sheets. It's not the fault of film
technology that electronic sensors cannot be made in 4x5 sizes.

One of the fundamental advantges of film _is_ that it can be made so
large, and this advantage can't be ignored.

If time were money, 4x5 is way, way behind
the game. LF involves a huge expense and effort for each
useable image. Like, for starters, $3 or $4 worth of film
and processing cost for each click of the shutter.


It's the price one pays for top quality. Getting similar quality from
digital wouldn't be any cheaper.

Steve Johnson decided back in 1994 that a scanning
back clamped to a 4x5 produced better images than film.


So does a scanning CCD line on a Voyager spacecraft, I suppose.
Unfortunately it takes half an hour to complete a shot.

Personally, I'm beginning to be concerned about the
continued availability (and limited choices) in color LF
film. As it stands right now there seem to be exactly
two brands to choose from, Kodak and Fuji. This
does not inspire hope and confidence for the future
of this medium.


Well, Kodak and Fuji have been the leaders for a long time.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
  #18  
Old March 2nd 04, 09:57 PM
Stacey
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Default Digital cameras hold value?

Raphael Bustin wrote:

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 20:18:11 GMT, Gregory W Blank
wrote:

In article ,
Raphael Bustin wrote:

As it stands right now there seem to be exactly
two brands to choose from, Kodak and Fuji. This
does not inspire hope and confidence for the future
of this medium.


Then again your exeprience is admittedly shorter
in history, Kodak and Fuji have been "the" suppliers
of 4x5 color materials for sometime. It was Agfa's choice
not to compete.



Would you be happy if your only choice of
car was Ford or Chevy?



You missed the point, kodak and fuji have been the main players in LF color
film for a -long- time. Nothing has changed.

--

Stacey
  #19  
Old March 2nd 04, 10:05 PM
Stacey
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Default Digital cameras hold value?

Raphael Bustin wrote:

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 21:19:08 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Raphael Bustin writes:



One of the fundamental advantges of film _is_ that it can be made so
large, and this advantage can't be ignored.



You can be intensely daft, Mr. Maniac.

Why not? For the same reason we don't
compare jumbo jets to Cessnas, Ferraris
to Ford Escorts, or caviar to snickers bars.


Who says no one does? Does this mean we can't recognise that a jet is faster
than a Cessna?


For every view camera sold there are
probably tens of thousands of digicams sold.


So what?



View cameras make no sense whatsoever
for typical users of cameras. They are bulky,
unwieldy, heavy, slow, expensive, and difficult
to operate.


Same as medformat.

In short, they serve a tiny niche
market that has almost nothing in common
with what most people need or want from
photography.


Same as medformat.

The general public is looking for a camera to use at their kids birthday
party or a vacation so they can remember it years from now. Anything else
-is- a niche market period. Talk to someone who works in the photo
finishing bussiness. Most of the stuff is either kids/pets/family or
vacations.


And with that, amigo, you're back to the killfile.



Like anyone cares? Why do people proclaim this, do they think everyone is
going to kill file this same person because they do?

--

Stacey
  #20  
Old March 2nd 04, 10:09 PM
Stacey
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Default Digital cameras hold value?

BCampbell wrote:

So a $5000 camera isn't worth getting fixed? I'm willing to bet a $5000
film
camera would be worth fixing no matter how old it was.


Ah, the old debating technique of advancing a new position when the
original one has been proven wrong. We weren't talking about getting it
fixed, your claim was that the seller didn't say the camera wasn't
functional.



He -didn't- say that, but even giving you that point this still proves it
isn't -worth anything-. If it was worth something, it would be worth
getting fixed correct?

--

Stacey
 




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