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Bad E-6 5L kits circulating?



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 29th 09, 03:28 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Thor Lancelot Simon
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Posts: 163
Default Bad E-6 5L kits circulating?

I think -- after very carefully *not* ordering another 5L E-6 kit
from Adorama since the last one they sent me was short dated (only
4 months left on the concentrate shelf life when it arrived) -- I
just got a bad 5L E-6 kit from B&H.

I can't be sure, since I mix partial kits, keeping the concentrates
out of vacuum and drawing them from the bottles with clean syringes.
This isn't, of course, the Kodak Approved procedure and I am pretty
sure that consequently, Kodak won't be too eager to help me. But
the first run of film I did in this kit, about a month ago, was
fine -- and generally I can keep a kit for well over a year using
this procedure, if I have to, with no problem with the developed
film. Today's tanks of film (sadly I ran two at once) showed all
the signs of exhausted first developer. There was a good strong
vacuum when I opened the bottles, so that's not it -- and it was
not particularly hot where they were stored, either, and I know
I got the mixtures right and times/temps were correct.

I wonder when the last time Kodak made the 5L E6 kits was. Has
anyone else received a bad one lately? With bad results from
both B&H and Adorama I'm not even sure where to turn for a new
one.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon
"Even experienced UNIX users occasionally enter rm *.* at the UNIX
prompt only to realize too late that they have removed the wrong
segment of the directory structure." - Microsoft WSS whitepaper
  #2  
Old June 29th 09, 09:14 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Richard Knoppow
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Posts: 752
Default Bad E-6 5L kits circulating?


"Thor Lancelot Simon" wrote in message
...
I think -- after very carefully *not* ordering another 5L
E-6 kit
from Adorama since the last one they sent me was short
dated (only
4 months left on the concentrate shelf life when it
arrived) -- I
just got a bad 5L E-6 kit from B&H.

I can't be sure, since I mix partial kits, keeping the
concentrates
out of vacuum and drawing them from the bottles with clean
syringes.
This isn't, of course, the Kodak Approved procedure and I
am pretty
sure that consequently, Kodak won't be too eager to help
me. But
the first run of film I did in this kit, about a month
ago, was
fine -- and generally I can keep a kit for well over a
year using
this procedure, if I have to, with no problem with the
developed
film. Today's tanks of film (sadly I ran two at once)
showed all
the signs of exhausted first developer. There was a good
strong
vacuum when I opened the bottles, so that's not it -- and
it was
not particularly hot where they were stored, either, and I
know
I got the mixtures right and times/temps were correct.

I wonder when the last time Kodak made the 5L E6 kits was.
Has
anyone else received a bad one lately? With bad results
from
both B&H and Adorama I'm not even sure where to turn for a
new
one.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon

"Even experienced UNIX users occasionally enter rm *.*
at the UNIX
prompt only to realize too late that they have removed
the wrong
segment of the directory structure." - Microsoft WSS
whitepaper


Have you tried Freestyle? They seem to be quite
reliable. I have the advantage that they are only a short
drive from my home but they seem to have a very good mail
order reputation.



--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA



  #3  
Old June 29th 09, 09:43 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Thor Lancelot Simon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 163
Default Bad E-6 5L kits circulating?

In article ,
Richard Knoppow wrote:

Have you tried Freestyle? They seem to be quite
reliable. I have the advantage that they are only a short
drive from my home but they seem to have a very good mail
order reputation.


It hadn't occurred to me that they'd stock the Kodak chemistry;
they have their own 3-bath "Arista" brand, and I don't want
3-bath, but I bet they do carry Kodak.

I called a friend at Calumet who told me that if I ordered a
5L kit from them it'd drop-ship to me from Kodak and that
if I got short-dated product directly from Kodak please let
them know immediately. Looking at the remnants of the
packaging from the last kit I got from Adorama, it appears
that, in fact, Kodak may have sent me short-dated product
directly from their Newark warehouse. Whoever sent me
nearly-expired chems, I'm not going to let it happen again!

I have ordered 30L worth of wide-mouth thick square HDPE
bottles from McMaster-Carr and will just devote the freezer
in my darkroom fridge to E6 chemistry mixed as full kits
of working solutions in .5L or 1L bottles. That has been
working well for me with C41 since Kodak went to the 2L
developer packaging so hopefully it will work for E6 too.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon
"Even experienced UNIX users occasionally enter rm *.* at the UNIX
prompt only to realize too late that they have removed the wrong
segment of the directory structure." - Microsoft WSS whitepaper
  #4  
Old June 29th 09, 09:56 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Thor Lancelot Simon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 163
Default Bad E-6 5L kits circulating?

In article m,
David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 6/29/2009 1:43 PM Thor Lancelot Simon spake thus:

I have ordered 30L worth of wide-mouth thick square HDPE
bottles from McMaster-Carr and will just devote the freezer
in my darkroom fridge to E6 chemistry mixed as full kits
of working solutions in .5L or 1L bottles.


Just a small note: I thought I'd read that PETE is less permeable than
HDPE, and therefore better for storing photo chemicals. Could be wrong
about that, but if not, maybe you'd want to rethink your storage containers.


I believe you're right -- it is less permeable. But these bottles are
quite thick, and they're square -- I couldn't find square PETE bottles
of the right size at a tolerable price. I think the wall thickness
and the low temperature will adequately deal with oxidation.

I've been freezing C41 chemistry in Jobo bottles, which are thick HDPE,
for a while now, and it's worked well. I considered glass bottles,
which are cheaper still, and of course completely impervious to air,
but I don't want to risk a glass bottle full of some nasty organic
compound like E6 reversal bath bursting in the freezer if I overfill
it slightly.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon
"Even experienced UNIX users occasionally enter rm *.* at the UNIX
prompt only to realize too late that they have removed the wrong
segment of the directory structure." - Microsoft WSS whitepaper
  #5  
Old June 29th 09, 09:57 PM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
David Nebenzahl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,353
Default Bad E-6 5L kits circulating?

On 6/29/2009 1:43 PM Thor Lancelot Simon spake thus:

I have ordered 30L worth of wide-mouth thick square HDPE
bottles from McMaster-Carr and will just devote the freezer
in my darkroom fridge to E6 chemistry mixed as full kits
of working solutions in .5L or 1L bottles.


Just a small note: I thought I'd read that PETE is less permeable than
HDPE, and therefore better for storing photo chemicals. Could be wrong
about that, but if not, maybe you'd want to rethink your storage containers.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism
  #6  
Old June 30th 09, 01:36 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Thor Lancelot Simon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 163
Default Bad E-6 5L kits circulating?

In article ,
Peter wrote:

How much better is it to freeze the chemicals than to keep them at
(say) 40 deg. F?


The rule of thumb is that reaction rate doubles with every 10F increase
in temperature, right? I'd much rather store these sorts of very fickly
solutions at 0F in my freezer than 40F in my fridge.

The downside is that, supposedly, some of the more complex organic
molecules can fractionate out when the solutions are frozen, and then
not go back into solution. I've never, ever seen it happen with C41
and I hope it doesn't happen with E6.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon
"Even experienced UNIX users occasionally enter rm *.* at the UNIX
prompt only to realize too late that they have removed the wrong
segment of the directory structure." - Microsoft WSS whitepaper
  #7  
Old June 30th 09, 03:26 AM posted to rec.photo.darkroom
Thor Lancelot Simon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 163
Default Bad E-6 5L kits circulating?

In article ,
Peter wrote:

Thank you. Kodak recommends storing mixed solutions only as cold as
40F (not sure why). I don't see a recommendation for the stock
solution. It does have accessory (5L) storage bottles.


They don't want you to get anywhere near 32F where the solutions might
freeze. Just below might be worst, actually, since it might be the
best way to fraction out anything with a lower freezing point. But as
I understand it, the concern is primarily a theoretical one -- I've asked
a few Kodak chemists about it over the years and they could not think of
any studies that directly bore on the question for modern color chemistry.

The 5L storage bottles are not terribly useful as unless you use 5L at a
time, you'll be opening and closing them constantly, introducing air or,
should you freeze the solutions, worse still introducing air *and* freezing
and thawing them.

FWIW, my father, who was at one time a chemical engineer, strongly suggested
not freezing the concentrates, which jibes with my own limited understanding
of the accidental-distillation process which is the basic concern with
freezing the chemistry and with what one acquaintance at Kodak said to me
a few years ago. Probably worst is that you'd have to freeze and thaw the
concentrate solutions every time you wanted to mix working stock -- not a
good thing.

I expect good results, as I said, freezing the dilute solutions in smaller
containers after mixing the entire 5L kit. If that turns out to not be
so, I'll mention it here.

--
Thor Lancelot Simon
"Even experienced UNIX users occasionally enter rm *.* at the UNIX
prompt only to realize too late that they have removed the wrong
segment of the directory structure." - Microsoft WSS whitepaper
 




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