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[Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 5th 08, 12:49 AM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Alan Browne
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Posts: 12,640
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge

Robert Coe wrote:
On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 18:38:30 -0500, Alan Browne
wrote:


: Film shooters are just as welcome to participate.
:
: See rule 1 b) para 2.

I noticed that, and it puzzled me. How does the inclusion of film contribute
in any way to answering the question that motivated the exercise? Which, I
believe, was "Do you need more than 12 megapixels in a full-frame digital
sensor?"


An indirect relationship to be sure, but if somebody submitted such the
comparison could be of interest. A 4000 dpi scan of a 35mm frame is
about 21.5 Mpix. So comparable in pixel count.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
-- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out.

  #22  
Old December 5th 08, 01:19 AM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Mark Thomas
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 835
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge

Alan Browne wrote:
Robert Coe wrote:
On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 18:38:30 -0500, Alan Browne
wrote:


: Film shooters are just as welcome to participate.
: : See rule 1 b) para 2.

I noticed that, and it puzzled me. How does the inclusion of film
contribute
in any way to answering the question that motivated the exercise?
Which, I
believe, was "Do you need more than 12 megapixels in a full-frame digital
sensor?"


An indirect relationship to be sure, but if somebody submitted such the
comparison could be of interest. A 4000 dpi scan of a 35mm frame is
about 21.5 Mpix. So comparable in pixel count.

Comparable in no of pixels, but not in quality - I've never seen a 4k
scan showing any better pixel-level quality than about an 8Mp dslr
equivalent (given nyquist/aliasing, etc).

Surely you would need the proverbial (and rarely seen) *good* drum scan
(and probably only from K25/Velvia/b&w) when you are getting into this
territory..?

Pushing past the extremes of 35mm format, imo, but it's interesting.
  #23  
Old December 5th 08, 01:27 AM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge

Mark Thomas wrote:
Alan Browne wrote:
Robert Coe wrote:
On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 18:38:30 -0500, Alan Browne
wrote:


: Film shooters are just as welcome to participate.
: : See rule 1 b) para 2.

I noticed that, and it puzzled me. How does the inclusion of film
contribute
in any way to answering the question that motivated the exercise?
Which, I
believe, was "Do you need more than 12 megapixels in a full-frame
digital
sensor?"


An indirect relationship to be sure, but if somebody submitted such the
comparison could be of interest. A 4000 dpi scan of a 35mm frame is
about 21.5 Mpix. So comparable in pixel count.

Comparable in no of pixels, but not in quality - I've never seen a 4k
scan showing any better pixel-level quality than about an 8Mp dslr
equivalent (given nyquist/aliasing, etc).

Surely you would need the proverbial (and rarely seen) *good* drum scan
(and probably only from K25/Velvia/b&w) when you are getting into this
territory..?


Regardless, good to document. It really does depend on the quality of
the image taken to get the best possible scan.

I was tempted to buy the wet kit for my 9000ED which reduces grain noise
and improves contrast (like a drum scan), but at $500 plus consumables
it was getting a bit insane.


--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
-- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out.
  #24  
Old December 5th 08, 01:46 AM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Mark Thomas
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 835
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge

Alan Browne wrote:
Mark Thomas wrote:
Alan Browne wrote:
Robert Coe wrote:
On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 18:38:30 -0500, Alan Browne
wrote:

: Film shooters are just as welcome to participate.
: : See rule 1 b) para 2.

I noticed that, and it puzzled me. How does the inclusion of film
contribute
in any way to answering the question that motivated the exercise?
Which, I
believe, was "Do you need more than 12 megapixels in a full-frame
digital
sensor?"

An indirect relationship to be sure, but if somebody submitted such the
comparison could be of interest. A 4000 dpi scan of a 35mm frame is
about 21.5 Mpix. So comparable in pixel count.

Comparable in no of pixels, but not in quality - I've never seen a 4k
scan showing any better pixel-level quality than about an 8Mp dslr
equivalent (given nyquist/aliasing, etc).

Surely you would need the proverbial (and rarely seen) *good* drum
scan (and probably only from K25/Velvia/b&w) when you are getting into
this territory..?


Regardless, good to document. It really does depend on the quality of
the image taken to get the best possible scan.

I was tempted to buy the wet kit for my 9000ED which reduces grain noise
and improves contrast (like a drum scan), but at $500 plus consumables
it was getting a bit insane.


I can understand that.. I would have to admit that I used to do a lot
of K25 work, but.. (blush) there's probably only ten or so of them that
might justify a drum scan.. For the rest, 2.7/4K suffices. (O:

And none of those few good'uns are of a newspaper, so I won't be
contributing, sorry. But I shall watch with interest - I hope you get a
few bites.

I wonder if Rafe Bustin/Jim Davis are still around - remember this?
http://www.terrapinphoto.com/jmdavis/

I was a bit unimpressed by most of the drum scans on that page, however
- it's a black art and very few folk seem to know how to do it well (or
maybe the source images/films just aren't up to it).
  #25  
Old December 5th 08, 11:32 PM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge

Mark Thomas wrote:

I can understand that.. I would have to admit that I used to do a lot
of K25 work, but.. (blush) there's probably only ten or so of them that
might justify a drum scan.. For the rest, 2.7/4K suffices. (O:


While we all shoot for quality we rarely shoot for extreme quantitative
quality.

And none of those few good'uns are of a newspaper, so I won't be
contributing, sorry. But I shall watch with interest - I hope you get a
few bites.


Only one so far that I know of (and film at that), plus me.

Methinks the Nikon 12 Mpix FF shooters have had time to reflect on this
and don't want to see the truth. Especially when their sole recourse is
a few months away and $8K.

Once a D3X gets into these NG wildernesses you can be sure that highest
resolution will take on new respect...

Or it will have to wait 6 - 12 months before Nikon do the same in a body
like the D700.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
-- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out.
  #26  
Old December 6th 08, 12:17 AM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
ASAAR
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,057
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge

On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 17:32:59 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:

Methinks the Nikon 12 Mpix FF shooters have had time to reflect on this
and don't want to see the truth. Especially when their sole recourse is
a few months away and $8K.

Once a D3X gets into these NG wildernesses you can be sure that highest
resolution will take on new respect...

Or it will have to wait 6 - 12 months before Nikon do the same in a body
like the D700.


Wow, I'm not surprised to see that your "friendly challenge" has
you gloating, but whining at the same time? What the world doesn't
need are fanboys with inferiority complexes.

  #27  
Old December 6th 08, 11:28 AM
Harold Gough Harold Gough is offline
Member
 
First recorded activity by PhotoBanter: Mar 2008
Posts: 31
Default

The Nikon D3X is a new factor in the discusssion:

http://imaging.nikon.com/products/im.../d3x/index.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Browne View Post
Some claim that full frame sensors like the Sony a900's 24.6 Mpix or the
Canon 21 Mpix cameras cannot out-resolve the Nikon 12 Mpix full frame
cameras.

I therefore throw out this friendly challenge with results to be posted
(full frame raw images) in two weeks time.

Send me an e-meil at the address above (less the "Freelunch") if you're
"in" and your gear complies to the requirement below.

PROPOSED RULES
--------------
Here are some rules, you may propose changes, naturally, in reply to
this post.

Let's try to sort out rule changes by this Friday (2008.12.05).

I will not reply to anything other than serious proposed rule changes or
adjustments which are within the grasp of the average shooters in these
NG's and which enable participation with a minimum of fuss, but that
have reasonably controllable technical requirements/minimums.

1. CAMERA and LENS

a) Each uses his sharpest 50mm or longer lens at its sharpest aperture.
You may borrow, beg, etc. a lens if you want/need to.

b) Full frame 35mm cameras only (eg: [24 x 36mm] +/- 1 mm).

Film is permitted, nay, encouraged. Scanning is the
responsibility of the shooter. (If you're late on the deadline, I'll
still post the images, of course). Submit TIF's.

c) Camera set to its best ISO for image quality (per the manufacturer).

2. TARGET

Subject to be a specific "The Economist" - "Positions" advertisement
(tend to have fine print) to be mutually agreed from the 6 Dec 2008 edition.

A ruler (cm or inches) must be part of the image but will not,
itself, be part of the evaluation.

Shooter to make sure the page is mounted as flat as reasonably
possible and normal to the lens axis. Eg: tape or clamp the page to a
piece of plywood.

3. LIGHTING

Tungsten lighting at a distance commensurate with exposure at chosen
aperture, ISO and speed. Assume two lights, one on each side, level
with the work and approximately 45 degrees to the lens axis.
I propose we agree on 100W for each light.

(I have no objection if folks prefer strobe lighting, as long as
everyone agrees on it and can do it. I would prefer strobe actually but
propose tungsten if that is more accessible.)

4. DISTANCE

Distance to be _1.25 inches per mm of focal length_ from the subject
to the sensor plane. (To allow a wide range of normal to telephot
lenses but a reasonable scaling for comparison.) If you know the 'true'
FL v. the marketed FL, then please use the true value.

(This constant to be refined but something on that order. Once agreed,
all shooters must use the same multiplier. A ruler (in cm or inches)
must be part of the photo(s)).

5. SUPPORT

Tripod, release cable and MLU are assumed.

6. RESULT FILES

Original, unchanged, raw files (no sharpening that way) to be sent
to me via YouSendIt.com. I will post these for access by all participants.

7. OTHER FILES

100% crops (sharpened and not) to be posted as well as selected by
the shooters.

8. EVALUATION

Evaluation: center and corner sharpness. Discussion of results in
rec.photo.equipment.slr-systems.

Does anyone have a resolution tool on their computer?

9. DEADLINE

Deadline: 2008.12.14 - Sunday midnight, Los Angeles Time.

Cheers,
Alan

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
-- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out.
  #28  
Old December 6th 08, 07:55 PM posted to rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge

Harold Gough wrote:
slashed

Don't top post. Snip preceding post for relevance.
  #29  
Old December 6th 08, 08:11 PM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Alan Browne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,640
Default [Mpix Challenge] Target issue

Alan Browne wrote:

This is the issue (6 Dec) of The Economist to get for the Mpix
Challenge. Should be on newsstands by Sun/Mon.

http://www.economist.com/printeditio...uecovUS400.jpg
or
http://tinyurl.com/5z6fud

Reference page to be announced.

--
-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
-- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
-- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
-- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
-- usenet posts from gmail.com and googlemail.com are filtered out.
  #30  
Old December 8th 08, 11:25 PM posted to alt.photography,rec.photo.digital.slr-systems,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,aus.photo
Paul Furman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,367
Default [Mpix Challenge] Megapixel resolution challenge

Alan Browne wrote:
Mark Thomas wrote:

I can understand that.. I would have to admit that I used to do a lot
of K25 work, but.. (blush) there's probably only ten or so of them
that might justify a drum scan.. For the rest, 2.7/4K suffices. (O:


While we all shoot for quality we rarely shoot for extreme quantitative
quality.

And none of those few good'uns are of a newspaper, so I won't be
contributing, sorry. But I shall watch with interest - I hope you get
a few bites.


Only one so far that I know of (and film at that), plus me.

Methinks the Nikon 12 Mpix FF shooters have had time to reflect on this
and don't want to see the truth. Especially when their sole recourse is
a few months away and $8K.


I don't expect to win so didn't submit :-(
and don't plan to upgrade any time soon.


Once a D3X gets into these NG wildernesses you can be sure that highest
resolution will take on new respect...

Or it will have to wait 6 - 12 months before Nikon do the same in a body
like the D700.



--
Paul Furman
www.edgehill.net
www.baynatives.com

all google groups messages filtered due to spam
 




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