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Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 10th 07, 03:46 AM posted to rec.video.desktop,rec.photo.digital
David C
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Posts: 6
Default Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?

I have read with interest an article titled: "The Great HD Shoot-Out - Canon
HV20, Sony HDR-HC7, Panasonic HDC-SD1, JVC GZ-HD7" by David Kender and John
Neely.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...erformance.htm

It says in this article that: "In 1080/60i, the Canon HV20 and Sony HDR-HC7
had nearly identical low light performance. The sensitivity (ability to
produce 50 IRE) for both was 7 lux, which is a very low light level. Color
accuracy and saturation levels were similar. The Canon produced slightly
less noise, which was evident by simple looking at the image. But the Canon
HV20 became hands-down champion of low light by virtue of a simple trick:
24P. By switching the HV20 into 24P, the sensitivity more than doubled,
dropping all the way down to 3 lux. What's more, the color accuracy improved
and the noise dropped. The ability to shoot in 24P is one of the strongest
selling points of the HV20, and the results of this test prove how valuable
that can be. Filmmakers should take note, however, that your project should
probably be start-to-finish in either interlaced or progressive. The
difference is jarring, even to the untrained eye."

Apparently, the Sony HDR-HC7 doesn't have the ability to film in 24p and
therefore can't match the Canon's low light performance when the latter is
filming in 24p.

In this article:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm

John Neely says that:

"Sony's HDR-HC7 ($1399 MSRP) was to be one of the best, if not the best,
consumer camcorders of 2007. It was certainly priced as such. But it didn't
work out that way. First off, while the video quality in bright light was
great, we have once again discovered a high-priced camcorder with seriously
deficient low light performance (the last being Canon's HV10)."

But it seems that it's only when filming in 24p that the low light
performance of the Canon HV20 is better than that of the Sony HDR-HC7? Can
anyone tell me their experiences of filming in 24P on a camcorder like the
Canon HV20 and whether a full project in this format would be as good as one
filmed in other formats available to the owner of a Sony HDR-HC7?

Thanks, David


  #2  
Old July 10th 07, 08:52 AM posted to rec.video.desktop,rec.photo.digital
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
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Posts: 4
Default Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?


"David C" wrote in message
...
I have read with interest an article titled: "The Great HD Shoot-Out -

Canon
HV20, Sony HDR-HC7, Panasonic HDC-SD1, JVC GZ-HD7" by David Kender and

John
Neely.


http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...Canon-HV20-Son
y-HDR-HC7-Panasonic-HDC-SD1-JVC-GZ-HD7/Performance.htm

It says in this article that: "In 1080/60i, the Canon HV20 and Sony

HDR-HC7
had nearly identical low light performance. The sensitivity (ability to
produce 50 IRE) for both was 7 lux, which is a very low light level. Color
accuracy and saturation levels were similar. The Canon produced slightly
less noise, which was evident by simple looking at the image. But the

Canon
HV20 became hands-down champion of low light by virtue of a simple trick:
24P. By switching the HV20 into 24P, the sensitivity more than doubled,
dropping all the way down to 3 lux. What's more, the color accuracy

improved
and the noise dropped. The ability to shoot in 24P is one of the strongest
selling points of the HV20, and the results of this test prove how

valuable
that can be. Filmmakers should take note, however, that your project

should
probably be start-to-finish in either interlaced or progressive. The
difference is jarring, even to the untrained eye."

Apparently, the Sony HDR-HC7 doesn't have the ability to film in 24p and
therefore can't match the Canon's low light performance when the latter is
filming in 24p.

In this article:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm



I can't speculate on why the 24P mode on the HV20 would be less noisy, but I
have done some tests on the Sony HVR-V1U that indicate that noise is lower
in INTERLACED mode than in progressive mode. According to my informal tests
using the subjective awareness of the threshold at which I could notice
noise in the viewfinder image while shooting general images in-studio, it
seemed that I could add 3dB more gain to the interlaced mode before noise
became visible in the VF than I could in progressive mode.
Now, there is an acceptable argument for better quality MPEG from
progressive images than from interlaced, which MAY play a role in this
difference that many are noting about the HV20.
I have one on order from B&H and it should be here in a couple of days, at
which time I will conduct some of my own evaluations. It will serve as
B-roll to my two V1Us.

Mark Weiss, P.E.
http://www.basspig.com/hvrv1u_HDV_artifacts.htm


  #3  
Old July 10th 07, 03:03 PM posted to rec.video.desktop,rec.photo.digital
Richard Crowley
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Posts: 43
Default Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?

"Mark Weiss" wrote ...
I can't speculate on why the 24P mode on the
HV20 would be less noisy,


The standard explanation is that 24 FPS gives the
pickup chip longer to collect photons which raises
the video signal farther up from the noise floor.
The difference is 24.9% longer integration time
(1/24 vs 1/30)
  #4  
Old July 10th 07, 08:48 PM posted to rec.video.desktop,rec.photo.digital
David C
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?


"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Mark Weiss" wrote ...
I can't speculate on why the 24P mode on the HV20 would be less noisy,


The standard explanation is that 24 FPS gives the
pickup chip longer to collect photons which raises
the video signal farther up from the noise floor.
The difference is 24.9% longer integration time
(1/24 vs 1/30)


Thanks Mark and Richard for your replies. The review by John Neely of the
Sony HDR-HC7 said that:

"Our new test showed that the HDR-HC7 was capable of producing 50 IRE at
approximately 7 lux, which put it on par with the Canon HV20 (Review, Specs,
Recent News, $903) (review in process now) in 1080i. However, the HV20
easily outperformed the Sony when shooting in 24P mode, going all the way
down to 3 lux. There was a also major qualitative difference in how the
image looked. Compared to the Canon HV20 in both 1080i and 24P, Sony's 1080i
had considerably more noise. There was really no contest. The Canon HV20
won, hands down."

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...erformance.htm

John Neely also said that:

"All in all, the 24P mode is reason enough to choose the HV20 over anything
else on the market in this price range, because it’s presented as an option.
"

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...erformance.htm

Do you agree that the ability of the Canon HV20 to film in 24P mode is
sufficient reason to choose it over anything else on the market in this
price range? It seems that once you start filming a project in 24P mode, you
shouldn't change over to 1080i. But John Neely says that "shooting fast
motion, like sports, however, would be better in 1080i." So from a practical
viewpoint, how many "average" home video users would really benefit from the
consistent use of the 24P mode, rather than using 1080i? If the 24P mode is
so great and is such a huge advantage over 1080i, why wouldn't Sony have
included a 24P mode option in the HDR-HC7? If it weren't for the 24P mode
issue, I would purchase the Sony HDRHC7, but if it really is a big advantage
to be able to film in 24P mode as John Neely suggests, then I may purchase
the Canon HRV20. However, the ability of the Sony HDRHC7 to take 6mp stills
together with its excellent ergonomic qualities, makes this a good choice
also.


  #5  
Old July 11th 07, 06:50 AM posted to rec.video.desktop,rec.photo.digital
David C
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?


"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Mark Weiss" wrote ...
I can't speculate on why the 24P mode on the HV20 would be less noisy,


The standard explanation is that 24 FPS gives the
pickup chip longer to collect photons which raises
the video signal farther up from the noise floor.
The difference is 24.9% longer integration time
(1/24 vs 1/30)


Just a further point about the Canon HV20, the one I looked at actually has
a 25P shooting mode, not 24P. This is dicussed he

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showt...hp?t=545601HDV

Does anyone know whether mini DV tape utilised to record film in the 25P
format can be edited satisfactorily in Sony Vegas?

Thanks, David

  #6  
Old July 11th 07, 07:55 AM posted to rec.video.desktop,rec.photo.digital
Frank
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 07:48:17 +1200, in 'rec.video.desktop',
in article Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light
performance?,
"David C" wrote:


"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Mark Weiss" wrote ...
I can't speculate on why the 24P mode on the HV20 would be less noisy,


The standard explanation is that 24 FPS gives the
pickup chip longer to collect photons which raises
the video signal farther up from the noise floor.
The difference is 24.9% longer integration time
(1/24 vs 1/30)


Thanks Mark and Richard for your replies. The review by John Neely of the
Sony HDR-HC7 said that:

"Our new test showed that the HDR-HC7 was capable of producing 50 IRE at
approximately 7 lux, which put it on par with the Canon HV20 (Review, Specs,
Recent News, $903) (review in process now) in 1080i. However, the HV20
easily outperformed the Sony when shooting in 24P mode, going all the way
down to 3 lux. There was a also major qualitative difference in how the
image looked. Compared to the Canon HV20 in both 1080i and 24P, Sony's 1080i
had considerably more noise. There was really no contest. The Canon HV20
won, hands down."

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...erformance.htm

John Neely also said that:

"All in all, the 24P mode is reason enough to choose the HV20 over anything
else on the market in this price range, because it’s presented as an option.
"

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...erformance.htm



David, it's been a long and difficult day (Tuesday, that is; it's now
Wednesday), so I'll need to be brief, but here are my thoughts on
this...

Do you agree that the ability of the Canon HV20 to film in 24P mode is
sufficient reason to choose it over anything else on the market in this
price range?


Absolutely not. Some will choose the Sony HDR-HC7 just because of its
better build quality (less plastic, more metal).

It seems that once you start filming a project in 24P mode, you
shouldn't change over to 1080i. But John Neely says that "shooting fast
motion, like sports, however, would be better in 1080i." So from a practical
viewpoint, how many "average" home video users would really benefit from the
consistent use of the 24P mode, rather than using 1080i?


In general, anyone who doesn't know exactly why they need 24p should
never use 24p. 24p is for people who know what 24p is, how to shoot
it, and how to edit it. If you don't already know all of that, then
don't use it.

You didn't describe the nature of your "project" (your word from your
initial post), but unless you're planning a film-out and expect
audiences to view your work on the silver screen, I'd recommend that
you forget about shooting 24p video (actually 23.976 fps in a 2:3
pulldown in a 1080i59.94 datastream).

I the 24P mode is
so great and is such a huge advantage over 1080i, why wouldn't Sony have
included a 24P mode option in the HDR-HC7?


Are you kidding? Using current B&H prices for U.S. models (you appear
to be in New Zealand), the consumer-grade HDR-HC7 is $1049.95 and the
prosumer-grade HVR-V1U is $3599.95 after $300 Sony mail-in rebate. The
two camcorders are in different classes. It took an act of god to get
Sony to include 24p on the HVR-V1U and you want to see it on the
HDR-HC7? Maybe someday, but not yet.

If it weren't for the 24P mode
issue, I would purchase the Sony HDRHC7, but if it really is a big advantage
to be able to film in 24P mode as John Neely suggests, then I may purchase
the Canon HRV20. However, the ability of the Sony HDRHC7 to take 6mp stills
together with its excellent ergonomic qualities, makes this a good choice
also.


Unless you prefer the Canon name over the Sony name, my
straight-from-the-hip advice would be to get the HDR-HC7 and shoot
normal 1080i59.94 video if it's really video that you want to shoot.

When you're ready to shoot film, get a low-cost but modern film camera
to start with. The Arriflex 235 is a nice small, affordable,
single-pin-registration, PL-mount, 35 mm camera. It weights less than
10 pounds, offers video assist, sits nicely on the shoulder, and is
3-perf so that you save 25 percent on film stock and lab fees. It's
remote controllable, does variable speeds of 1 to 60 frames per
second, and takes 200-foot and 400-foot magazines. Rent glass as
needed.

http://www.arri.com/prod/cam/235/235.htm

Video sucks, film forever! (You can tell that I'm tired.)

--
Frank, Independent Consultant, New York, NY
[Please remove 'nojunkmail.' from address to reply via e-mail.]
Read Frank's thoughts on HDV at http://www.humanvalues.net/hdv/
  #7  
Old July 11th 07, 08:07 AM posted to rec.video.desktop,rec.photo.digital
Frank
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:50:01 +1200, in 'rec.video.desktop',
in article Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light
performance?,
"David C" wrote:


"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Mark Weiss" wrote ...
I can't speculate on why the 24P mode on the HV20 would be less noisy,


The standard explanation is that 24 FPS gives the
pickup chip longer to collect photons which raises
the video signal farther up from the noise floor.
The difference is 24.9% longer integration time
(1/24 vs 1/30)


Just a further point about the Canon HV20, the one I looked at actually has
a 25P shooting mode, not 24P. This is dicussed he

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showt...hp?t=545601HDV


If you're in New Zealand, which is a System B PAL country, the Canon
HV20 that you would purchase there would be the 25p (50 Hz) model and
not the 24p (60 Hz) model.

Does anyone know whether mini DV tape utilised to record film in the 25P
format can be edited satisfactorily in Sony Vegas?


I would check the Vegas forums for absolute confirmation of that, but
as far as I know Vegas should handle 25p (PsP) from the 50 Hz versions
of the Sony HVR-V1 series camcorders, so I would think that it could
handle 25p from a 50 Hz Canon HV20.

Thanks, David


You're welcome.

--
Frank, Independent Consultant, New York, NY
[Please remove 'nojunkmail.' from address to reply via e-mail.]
Read Frank's thoughts on HDV at http://www.humanvalues.net/hdv/
  #8  
Old July 11th 07, 08:15 AM posted to rec.video.desktop,rec.photo.digital
Frank
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 03:07:06 -0400, in 'rec.video.desktop',
in article Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light
performance?,
Frank wrote:

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:50:01 +1200, in 'rec.video.desktop',
in article Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light
performance?,
"David C" wrote:


"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Mark Weiss" wrote ...
I can't speculate on why the 24P mode on the HV20 would be less noisy,

The standard explanation is that 24 FPS gives the
pickup chip longer to collect photons which raises
the video signal farther up from the noise floor.
The difference is 24.9% longer integration time
(1/24 vs 1/30)


Just a further point about the Canon HV20, the one I looked at actually has
a 25P shooting mode, not 24P. This is dicussed he

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showt...hp?t=545601HDV


If you're in New Zealand, which is a System B PAL country, the Canon
HV20 that you would purchase there would be the 25p (50 Hz) model and
not the 24p (60 Hz) model.

Does anyone know whether mini DV tape utilised to record film in the 25P
format can be edited satisfactorily in Sony Vegas?


I would check the Vegas forums for absolute confirmation of that, but
as far as I know Vegas should handle 25p (PsP) from the 50 Hz versions
of the Sony HVR-V1 series camcorders, so I would think that it could
handle 25p from a 50 Hz Canon HV20.


Sorry, very tired. Make that "25p (PsF)" instead of "25p (PsP)".

And if you *are* in New Zealand, then normal video would be 1080i50.
Here in the U.S., it's 1080i59.94.

Thanks, David


You're welcome.


--
Frank, Independent Consultant, New York, NY
[Please remove 'nojunkmail.' from address to reply via e-mail.]
Read Frank's thoughts on HDV at http://www.humanvalues.net/hdv/
  #9  
Old July 11th 07, 10:56 AM posted to rec.video.desktop,rec.photo.digital
David C
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?

"Frank" wrote in message
...


David, it's been a long and difficult day (Tuesday, that is; it's now
Wednesday), so I'll need to be brief, but here are my thoughts on
this...


Thanks very much Frank for you informative comments, they are most helpful.

"David C" wrote:


Do you agree that the ability of the Canon HV20 to film in 24P mode is
sufficient reason to choose it over anything else on the market in this
price range?


Absolutely not. Some will choose the Sony HDR-HC7 just because of its
better build quality (less plastic, more metal).


True, but my main criteria is the quality of the video, and that's why I
became interested in John Neely's enthusiasm for the 24p mode, which is
available in the Canon HV20, but not in the Sony HDR-HC7.

It seems that once you start filming a project in 24P mode, you
shouldn't change over to 1080i. But John Neely says that "shooting fast
motion, like sports, however, would be better in 1080i." So from a
practical
viewpoint, how many "average" home video users would really benefit from
the
consistent use of the 24P mode, rather than using 1080i?


In general, anyone who doesn't know exactly why they need 24p should
never use 24p. 24p is for people who know what 24p is, how to shoot
it, and how to edit it. If you don't already know all of that, then
don't use it.


I would tend to agree, but if the use of 24p can substantially improve low
light performance and overall video quality, then it might be worth my while
to gain sufficient knowledge to sensibly use 24p?

You didn't describe the nature of your "project" (your word from your
initial post), but unless you're planning a film-out and expect
audiences to view your work on the silver screen, I'd recommend that
you forget about shooting 24p video (actually 23.976 fps in a 2:3
pulldown in a 1080i59.94 datastream).


My projects are mainly family ones, such as shooting holidays, kids' parties
and school productions. But even such simple applications can benefit from a
good low light performing camcorder, hence my questions about 24p.

If the 24P mode is
so great and is such a huge advantage over 1080i, why wouldn't Sony have
included a 24P mode option in the HDR-HC7?


Are you kidding? Using current B&H prices for U.S. models (you appear
to be in New Zealand), the consumer-grade HDR-HC7 is $1049.95 and the
prosumer-grade HVR-V1U is $3599.95 after $300 Sony mail-in rebate. The
two camcorders are in different classes. It took an act of god to get
Sony to include 24p on the HVR-V1U and you want to see it on the
HDR-HC7? Maybe someday, but not yet.


It seems strange that the Canon HV 20 is able to feature a 24p mode option
and cost $500 less (in New Zealand) than the Sony HDR-HC7, which doesn't
have a 24p option. I wonder whether 24p will become a fairly standard
expectation of camcorder buyers in the future?

snip

Thanks again for your help.

Regards, David

  #10  
Old July 11th 07, 02:04 PM posted to rec.video.desktop,rec.photo.digital
Richard Crowley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 43
Default Filming in 24P mode on a camcorder improves low light performance?

"David C" wrote ...
I would tend to agree, but if the use of 24p can substantially improve
low light performance and overall video quality, then it might be
worth my while to gain sufficient knowledge to sensibly use 24p?


But using 24p is a backwards way of improving low
light performance, and carries substantial disadvantages
in subsequent distribution, etc. of the video. IMHO it is
NOT a practical way to get better low light performance.
If you want better low light performance, then use a
camera that inherently has better low light performance.

My projects are mainly family ones, such as shooting holidays, kids'
parties and school productions. But even such simple applications can
benefit from a good low light performing camcorder, hence my questions
about 24p.


But then what do you intend to do with 24p video?
How do you distribute it so that the intended audience
(family members? others?) can view it?

 




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