A Photography forum. PhotoBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » PhotoBanter.com forum » Photo Techniques » General Photography Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Rule of Thirds?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old November 23rd 03, 03:41 AM
Toke Eskildsen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Rule of Thirds?

Steve wrote:

On 21 Nov 2003 23:26:46 GMT, Toke Eskildsen wrote:

However, I'd like to know if one of the rules are better than the
other, if we disregard the extra time it takes to calculate the
Golden Section?


Oh come on, don't you think it all depends on the picture? How can
you possibly debate the difference between 33% and 38% without
regard to what's in the frame?


With that reasoning in mind, we might as well invent an arbitrary rule:
"place any object of importance aproximately 10% from the left edge of
the image", then say that that rule is just as valid as the other two,
depending on what's in the frame.

It's true, but the advice has little value as a general rule of thumb.

Frankly, if you're going to impose such an arbitrary blanket rule on
all pictures then any number will work as well (or as badly) as any
other. These rules are *approximations*, rules of thumb [...]


Now, with fear of being unthankful for your help, I'll quote from my
original posting: "I know that both the Rule of Thirds and the Golden
Section are suggestions only, but I'd like to know if I generally
should stick to the Golden Section or if the Rule of Thirds is just as
valid?"

I expect that there's a reason that these rules of thumbs are given:
Probably because a lot of people like such compositions. I expect that
they _generally_ work better than the 10% rule I just pulled out of my
hat.

There are several rules of thumb for composition. "Make room for
movement" for example. What makes the Golden Section and the Rule of
Thirds interesting in this context is that they essentially tell the
same: "let straight lines and points of interest intersect with the
guides" - they only differ somewhat in where those guides should be.

Choosing between 33% and 38% is pseudo-precision at best.


That is true the moment you want to apply the rule of thumb to a
specific picture, but not if you're trying to establish what the rule
of thumb should be.
--
Toke Eskildsen - http://ekot.dk/
  #12  
Old November 23rd 03, 03:52 AM
Toke Eskildsen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Rule of Thirds?

Bob Sull wrote:

I've been in this for almost 30 years and this is the first I have
heard ofthe "golden Section" too. The "Rule of Thirds" has been
around longer than I have.....


This seems to be a cultural thing. I've discussed this in a danish
photo newsgroup and I got the exact opposite reaction: Veteran
photographers that say that they've "always" known about the Golden
Section, but only recently learned about the Rule of Thirds.
  #13  
Old November 23rd 03, 04:04 AM
Toke Eskildsen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Rule of Thirds?

Angela M. Cable wrote:

I don't know if this would help or not, I wrote this a while back
for some folks having trouble with artistic cropping:
http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/...ials/cropping/


Ah yes, that looks a lot like what I'm experimenting with, except that
I'd like to combine the frame with the grid lines.
  #14  
Old November 23rd 03, 05:20 AM
Dean Van Praotl
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Rule of Thirds?

Toke Eskildsen apparently said:

That is true the moment you want to apply the rule of thumb to a
specific picture, but not if you're trying to establish what the rule
of thumb should be.


Whichever rule you choose, either Rule of Thirds or Golden
Section, there will be those who say you chose poorly.
Both are exactly what you are looking, "rules of thumb" and
are just suggestions; rules made to be broken. Either is
valid some of the time, and neither is valid all the time.

If it's any help, I was taught the Rule of Thirds something like
thirty years ago, and the first time I heard of the Golden Section
being used in this way was probably less than one year ago.
For my money, Thirds is a lot easier to implement...
  #15  
Old November 23rd 03, 07:03 AM
Phil Stripling
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Rule of Thirds?

Toke Eskildsen writes:

Angela M. Cable wrote:

I don't know if this would help or not, I wrote this a while back
for some folks having trouble with artistic cropping:
http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/...ials/cropping/


Ah yes, that looks a lot like what I'm experimenting with, except that
I'd like to combine the frame with the grid lines.


I'm not sure if you noticed, but the Web site posted by someone earlier had
a template of the golden section which they suggested printing onto a
transparency (I have 8 x 10 inch overhead transparency film); you put the
transparency with the template over photographs of nautilus shells and
whatever to see if you can find a match. You might consider that as an aid
to experimentation, although it is _not_ a frame for cropping.
--
Philip Stripling | email to the replyto address is presumed
Legal Assistance on the Web | spam and read later. email to philip@
http://www.PhilipStripling.com/ | my domain is read daily.
  #16  
Old November 23rd 03, 05:35 PM
Toke Eskildsen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Rule of Thirds?

Vaidd wrote:

In the reference you gave
http://graphicssoft.about.com/librar...uleofthirds.ht
m it says "Art/Technology Guide Sharon Silva explains The Golden
Section which is the basis for the rule of thirds"


Yes, but I was unsure if it was the basis as in "the Rule of Thirds is
an easy version of the Golden Section" or as in "the Golden Section
inspired the Rule of Thirds which photographers generally seems to find
more pleasing".

Some digging around seems to support the easy version idea though:
http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-...?msg_id=003HNO
http://goldennumber.net/art.htm

Personally I'd stick with the Golden Section if you're making a
frame/guide for an image. In a camera viewfinder though the rule
of thirds is easier to apply.


That's what I will do too.
  #17  
Old November 23rd 03, 08:59 PM
Angela M. Cable
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Rule of Thirds?

Toke Eskildsen wrote:

Angela M. Cable wrote:

I don't know if this would help or not, I wrote this a while back
for some folks having trouble with artistic cropping:
http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/...ials/cropping/


Ah yes, that looks a lot like what I'm experimenting with, except that
I'd like to combine the frame with the grid lines.


You know, I tried building a vector preset shape to do just that, I
can't remember now what the problem was with it, but I couldn't get it
to work properly. It might be possible, in PSP8 at least, to do it with
some advanced Python scripting. You'd have to talk to somebody that
knows a whole lot more about Python though than me :-)

--
Angela M. Cable
PSP8 Private Beta Tester

PSP Tutorial Links:
http://www.psplinks.com
5th Street Studio, free graphics, websets and mo
http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/alaia/354/
  #18  
Old November 23rd 03, 11:39 PM
Toke Eskildsen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Rule of Thirds?

Vaidd wrote:

See http://www.psppower.com/2002may/crop2.htm under dynamic
cropping.
This relates the rule of thirds to the golden ratio (section)

Note 'the rule of thirds' as given above does not mean dividing
the sides equally into three.


It gives a third placement of the lines, even farther from the center
than the Rule of Third is. Now I'm confused.
  #19  
Old November 24th 03, 04:13 AM
Angela M. Cable
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Rule of Thirds?

Toke Eskildsen wrote:

Vaidd wrote:

See http://www.psppower.com/2002may/crop2.htm under dynamic
cropping.
This relates the rule of thirds to the golden ratio (section)

Note 'the rule of thirds' as given above does not mean dividing
the sides equally into three.


It gives a third placement of the lines, even farther from the center
than the Rule of Third is. Now I'm confused.


He's mixing his terminology. What he's doing is the Golden Section. Keep
in mind that the Golden Section refers to a very specific rectangle,
1:1.618. So unless your image is a rectangle of that proportion the
Golden Section isn't going to work out exactly in any case. 35mm film is
24x36mm, which works out to 1:1.5, close but not the specific rectangle
you need for a Golden Section. I expect that this is why the Rule of
Thirds came about, you can apply it to *any* rectangle.

--
Angela M. Cable
PSP8 Private Beta Tester

PSP Tutorial Links:
http://www.psplinks.com
5th Street Studio, free graphics, websets and mo
http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/alaia/354/
  #20  
Old November 24th 03, 08:45 AM
Toke Eskildsen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Rule of Thirds?

Angela M. Cable wrote:

[Snip http://www.psppower.com/2002may/crop2.htm]

He's mixing his terminology. What he's doing is the Golden
Section. Keep in mind that the Golden Section refers to a very
specific rectangle, 1:1.618.


That is correct, but that is not what he does. If we divide a line in
two parts and compare the parts, we have that

- Mathematical center is 1:1
- The Golden Section is 1:1.618...
- The Rule of Thirds is 1:2

He doesn't give his measurements and it's been too long before I
learned about geometrics, but a quick measure gives approximately

- PSPPower: 1:2.57

That is so far off that I guess I've made an error somewhere.

So unless your image is a rectangle of that proportion the Golden
Section isn't going to work out exactly in any case.


He claims that it should - the rectangle won't be golden, but the
golden areas can still be found.

35mm film is 24x36mm, which works out to
1:1.5, close but not the specific rectangle you need for a Golden
Section. I expect that this is why the Rule of Thirds came about,
you can apply it to *any* rectangle.


As I see it, the Golden Section can still be used in a non-golden
rectangle: The Golden Mean in itself is about dividing lines. But in
order to get a "true" Golden Section, the whole crop needs to be a
Golden Rectangle.
--
Toke Eskildsen - http://ekot.dk/
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Insane new TSA rule for film inspection [email protected] 35mm Photo Equipment 94 June 23rd 04 05:17 AM
Does the 1/focal length rule apply for hand holding medium format? Peter Chant Medium Format Photography Equipment 14 June 22nd 04 05:13 AM
Rule of f16 Trevor Longino Medium Format Photography Equipment 78 June 2nd 04 08:13 PM
Photo slide rule! f/256 Large Format Photography Equipment 0 January 15th 04 05:28 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 PhotoBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.