In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

programs need an operating system, which does happen to run on its own,
therefore by your definition, the os must be a program, with everything
else nothing but a bunch of subroutines.

in other words, your definition is wrong.

You should start with the boot loader, or maybe go back to the BIOS

you're moving the goalposts, again.

Not at all. Not even operating systems can run on their own.

yet they can, and do.

modern computers don't have a bios ...

Nor do some ancient ones.

Toodle-oo to EUFI too

uefi, not eufi, although still called efi, and as i said, the majority
of computers today don't have that.

for clarification:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EUFI
€ Extrauterine fetal incubation. See Artificial uterus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface
The Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI) is a specification
that defines a software interface between an operating system and
platform firmware. UEFI replaces the Basic Input/Output System (BIOS)
firmware interface originally present in all IBM PC-compatible
personal computers, with most UEFI firmware implementations providing
legacy support for BIOS services. UEFI can support remote diagnostics
and repair of computers, even with no operating system installed.

Intel developed the original Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI)
specification. Some of the EFI's practices and data formats mirror
those from Microsoft Windows. In 2005, UEFI deprecated EFI 1.10
(the final release of EFI). The Unified EFI Forum is the industry body
that manages the UEFI specification.

and calculators don't have either
one, but for computers that did, they are for loading the operating
system, not for running programs.

And programs are for running subroutines (and also functions).

no.

programs are for doing work for the user.

also, functions *are* subroutines. nothing more than another stupid
semantic argument of yours.

some functions on the more advanced calculators are very sophisticated
programs, invoked with a tap of a button, and on some calculators, can
be assigned to a button of the user's choosing.

for programmable calculators, the functions are without any question
*not* subroutines, but full fledged programs, and may internally have
subroutines within them.

i see you ignored this part.

The functions in a programmable calculator can be called on from the
keyboard and used as required. If you can write a program that calls
on them and links them then the machine is computer and the functions
are subroutines.

nope.

calculator programs have subroutines *within* them.

Big programs have little programs designed to run inside 'em
Little programs have lesser programs and so ad infinitum.

goalpost movement detected.

with that (new) definition, there is no such thing as a subroutine.

everything would be a program, which contradicts your earlier claim
that everything is a subroutine.

calculator programs can also run other programs.

See.

they *can*.

that doesn't mean they always do. it's actually rare.

calculator programs can also be assigned to physical buttons as well as
loaded and saved on magnetic cards or other storage.

Oh, I loved my HP41C.

yep, it was an awesome device in its day and still rather impressive.

however, the magnetic card debuted with the hp-65 many years earlier.

some of the functions assigned to buttons from the factory are very
sophisticated programs.

hewlett-packard calls them programs, as does the hp user base.

they're called 'programmable calculators', not 'subroutineable
calculators'.

Subroutines are not programs?

nope.

calculator programs are in every way, programs.

are you going to claim that inserting a magnetic card or a module adds
subroutines and not programs?

Now you are being silly.

nope.

yet another one of your pointless semantic arguments.

^^^ this ^^^