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Old April 4th 18, 03:20 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.apps,rec.photo.digital
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In article , RJH wrote:

Exxon/Mobil has to drill oil wells, run tankers, clean
up spills.... how is it that Exxon/Mobil and Apple are
both near the top in profits? How is it that Apple
managed to collect a $215B tax evasion stash offshore
in the space of 7 years? *Billion!* That's about $30B/year.
And that's only the money they're hiding to cheat on taxes.

apple has not evaded paying *any* taxes. apple pays every tax dollar
they owe.


I think s/he meant tax *avoidance*. And Apple most certainly does avoid
tax.


no they don't. apple does *not* evade or avoid paying taxes. period.


They avoid paying tax. Period.


nope.

apple follows the tax code to reduce their tax liability, just like
other businesses and individuals do, which is not only legal, but smart
business.

apple does *not* fudge the numbers to avoid paying taxes. that's
illegal and stupid.

unfortunately, there are a few businesses who don't pay what they owe
and they eventually get fined or even shut down.

here's two:
https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...n-3-Five-Guys-
Locations-Citing-Failure-to-Pay-Taxes-462115413.html
The D.C. government has ordered the shutdown of three Five Guys
restaurants in the city because the owners failed to pay sales taxes,
officials say.

https://www.pressherald.com/2018/03/...-bar-in-portla
nd-to-serve-4-months-for-failing-to-pay-taxes/
The owner of a landmark bar and restaurant on Portlandıs waterfront
will serve four months in jail and pay more than $1.3 million in
restitution for failing to turn over most of her sales taxes to the
state, and for not paying her personal and corporate Maine income
taxes, over a period of seven years.

Why did they shift off-shoring tax from
Ireland to Jersey? Partly to save face. But to save face over avoiding
$14B in tax. By avoiding it in a more obscure way.


nope.

apple, like other companies as well as individuals, pay the taxes they
owe, however, they *minimize* it to the extent that the tax code
allows. in fact, as a public company, they're legally *obligated* to do
so.


Nonsense. There is no law that says a company cannot pay tax at a full
and fair local rate.


public companies have a fiduciary obligation to their shareholders.

judge learned hand,
http://intltax.typepad.com/intltax_b...x-quotes-4-5.h
tml
Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low
as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best
pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase
one's taxes.
Gregory v. Helvering, 69 F.2d 809, 810 (2d Cir. 1934)


May? Why not must, if it's 'the law'?


read it again.

Over and over again courts have said that there is nothing sinister
in so arranging one's affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible.
Everybody does so, rich or poor; and all do right, for nobody owes
any public duty to pay more than the law demands: taxes are enforced
exactions, not voluntary contributions. To demand more in the name of
morals is mere cant.
Commissioner v. Newman, 159 F.2d 848, 851 (2d Cir. 1947) - dissenting
opinion


Tax *is* a moral construct. There is nothing intrinsic or innate about
tax, and law is a feeble attempt to uphold an ethical position - that
tax is paid on a proportion of profit (in this case).

And using a legal case to underpin a legal argument is hardly the point
at issue. Avoidance is legal. Avoidance is also about moral and ethical
issues. Rationality, if you like.


they're not avoiding anything.

I'd happily revise my opinion in the light of a coherent moral or
ethical position on Apple's behaviour.


doubtful.

I would argue, quite successfully, that Apple pays nothing like every
tax dollar they should.


you would fail incredibly hard at such an argument.


Just internet search "apple tax avoidance" (in quotes if you want - 30k+
hits). It really isn't my argument.


just internet search "flat earth", 11.6 million hits w/o quotes, 7.8
million with.

that's two orders of magnitude higher than apple tax avoidance, so it
*really* must be true.

if number of hits in a search is your metric to validate something,
then you have *far* bigger problems.

apple might not pay what *you* think they should but that's very
different.


Again, it's not just me. I may well be in a minority, but I don't think
I am.


minority/majority isn't the issue.

apple is paying their *legal* tax obligation. period.

paying *more* than what they legally owe is stupid.

do you pay more than what you owe?? do you take deductions?

*you* didn't write the tax code, so what *you* think apple or any other
company should pay is completely irrelevant.

and why single out apple? amazon, who paid nothing compared to the ~11b
that apple paid in fy'17, along with microsoft, facebook, google, cisco
and the rest, all use the tax code to their advantage.


Agreed. They all avoid tax. I'm singling out Apple because they're the
object of discussion. I don't consider them to be the worst by a long chalk.

I avoid tax sometimes, and it's wrong.


then you're a hypocrite.

I really do have a problem with Cook on this, and it's one of the few
occasions where he gets aggressive because he knows he's wrong.


he's not wrong. he's just a whole lot smarter than you are about how to
run a business.

There's
no need. Apple is a business whose prime aim is the accumulation of
money and shareholder return. Like a lot of business.


like every public corporation and nearly all private ones.

Other concerns -
such as workers' protection, tax paid in the spirit of community,
sourcing raw materials sustainably - are secondary. Just say so. People
will still buy Apple.

I know all this and I do.


too bad you don't understand any of it.