Contact paper question

[Collin Brendemuehl]

Ok, now that LF is taking my free time it's time to get
contact printing (& enlarging as well) done right.
Or at least to understand it more fully.

So, let's pursue 8x10 contact printing for now.
1. Is there a "best" contact printing paper?
1.1 Any online examples of AZO vs. whatever, to show the difference?

2. Do chemicals make any difference here?

Any other things to look at that you can think of?

TIA,

Collin

[Nicholas O. Lindan]

"Collin Brendemuehl" > wrote


> So, let's pursue 8x10 contact printing for now.
> 1. Is there a "best" contact printing paper?

Since there is only one (?? - or are there 2)
it is not only the best, but also the worst.
In sum, it is thoroughly mediocre.

> 1.1 Any online examples of AZO vs. whatever, to show the difference?

Enter "azo paper" into Google - then click on the images tab.

> 2. Do chemicals make any difference here?

Do you dip the cracker into the wine or do you take the wine
and cracker separately?: Episcopalian churches in Kansas City
had schisms on this issue. (Unitarian urban legend)

When all is said and done the developers (outside of the
obvious, such as what color toner was used) make little
difference. IMHO: only the person making the prints would
can one he developed in Dektol from the one he developed
in Ansco 130.

And after saying that, I'm killfiling this thread.

> Any other things to look at that you can think of?

Mountains, rivers, forests, flowers, women ....
It is necessary to look at these things first.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.

[Joe Smigiel]

Kodak still makes AZO. Bergger has a new contact paper which I haven't
used. And then there is Centennial POP which I prefer.

Centennial is akin to the old Kodak Studio Proof gelatine silver chloride
printing-out-paper and has a nice purplish tone which responds well to
several toning formulas. No developer needed in the processing. It is
available through Bostick & Sullivan as well as Chicago Albumen Works.

AZO is also a wonderful paper if treated correctly. Michael Smith sings
its praises on his website.

Contact prints on any of these papers will blow away any enlarging paper
print in my experience. They are hardly "mediocre" IMHO.

Joe



(Switch the vOwEls in my email address to reply directly.)

"Nicholas O. Lindan" wrote:

> "Collin Brendemuehl" > wrote
>
> > So, let's pursue 8x10 contact printing for now.
> > 1. Is there a "best" contact printing paper?
>
> Since there is only one (?? - or are there 2)
> it is not only the best, but also the worst.
> In sum, it is thoroughly mediocre.
>
> (snip)

[Dan Quinn]

RE: (Collin Brendemuehl) wrote

> 1. Is there a "best" contact printing paper?

Projection papers will expose more quickly. THE contact paper
Azo is very slow.
Fortezo does list a contact speed paper. Likely Europe is the
only source. Dan

[Ken Smith]

(Collin Brendemuehl) wrote in message >...
> Ok, now that LF is taking my free time it's time to get
> contact printing (& enlarging as well) done right.
> Or at least to understand it more fully.
>
> So, let's pursue 8x10 contact printing for now.
> 1. Is there a "best" contact printing paper?
> 1.1 Any online examples of AZO vs. whatever, to show the difference?
>
> 2. Do chemicals make any difference here?
>
> Any other things to look at that you can think of?
>
> TIA,
>
> Collin



I've worked with the Azo for a year now, and while it is a beautiful
paper, I honestly don't think it's differences are always preferable.
It has a slighter longer tonal range, but you might find you don't
always like the look. I've done it in amidol developer, which is not
absolutely necessary. Some say Agfa Neutol WA is a great paper
developer for Azo. Normal papers can be quite satisfying, and Azo,
shouldn't be necessary, though it does have it's charms. If you are
like me, you'll have to see for yourself. Nothing over the web is
going to really tell its qualities. At its price, including the amidol,
I am likely headed back to a regular fiber. I like Ilford Multigrade.
For alot of Azo information, and a forum see: Michael A. Smith & Paula
Chamlee's Website. They be the Azo gods.

Ken

[Michael Scarpitti]

(Collin Brendemuehl) wrote in message >...
> Ok, now that LF is taking my free time it's time to get
> contact printing (& enlarging as well) done right.
> Or at least to understand it more fully.
>
> So, let's pursue 8x10 contact printing for now.
> 1. Is there a "best" contact printing paper?
> 1.1 Any online examples of AZO vs. whatever, to show the difference?
>
> 2. Do chemicals make any difference here?
>
> Any other things to look at that you can think of?
>
> TIA,
>
> Collin

Contact-type papers used to be commonplace, but no more. Azo will give
you astonishing quality.

[Gregory W Blank]

In article >,
(Dan Quinn) wrote:

> Fortezo does list a contact speed paper. Likely Europe is the
> only source. Dan


Bad info:

It can be gotten and is distributed in the USA.
--
LF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

[Gregory W Blank]

In article et>,
"Nicholas O. Lindan" > wrote:

> And after saying that, I'm killfiling this thread.

That's because he knows he is going to get a lot of flack.
--
LF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

[Gregory W Blank]

In article >,
(Collin Brendemuehl) wrote:

> Ok, now that LF is taking my free time it's time to get
> contact printing (& enlarging as well) done right.
> Or at least to understand it more fully.
>
> So, let's pursue 8x10 contact printing for now.
> 1. Is there a "best" contact printing paper?
> 1.1 Any online examples of AZO vs. whatever, to show the difference?

I am always a sceptic of "differences" presented on line.
If you want to learn Azo go to Michael and Paula's workshops
they great, I had a blast and made two great friends in the process.
Both have astounding prints, and you will learn alot.

> 2. Do chemicals make any difference here?

Yes but using Amidol although suggested, other developers
can work.

Dektol less effective at 1 to 2.

> Any other things to look at that you can think of?

Take all opinions as such.

>
> TIA,
>
> Collin
--
LF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

[Reciprocity Failure]

Azo is a very nice paper if you don't mind working with single weight paper
which wasn't a problem for me. I used Azo as long as the negative could be
printed in grades 2 or 3, or adjusted within these grades by use of a water
bath for part of the development time. Those were the only grades in which
Azo was generally available in 8x10 when I used it. If the negative called
for something other than grade 2 or 3 I switched to Polymax Fine Art and
used my enlarger's variable contrast light source.

Developers make a big difference with Azo. Amidol produced a warm tone,
Ilford Universal produced a noticeably blue cool tone which I didn't like.
The main thing I didn't like with Azo and Amidol (other than the need to
contstantly put on and take off gloves when using it) was the fact that out
of the fix the paper has a slightly greenish cast to it that has to be
removed with Kodak rapid selenium toner. The problem with that was that the
timing in the toner had to be almost perfect. If left in the toner too short
a time the greenish cast wasn't removed, if left in too long a time the
toner produced that purple selenium look. I wanted a neutral tone so it was
a matter of wateching each print with an eagle eye and pulling at just the
right time.

I should add that Michael Smith recommends highly dilute selenium to remove
the greenish cast, something like 1:120. I never tried that, I used a
stronger combintation, something like 1:10. Possibly if I had tried his
recommendation the timing wouldn't have been so critical (I forget now why I
didn't try it). As I'm sure others must have told you, Michael Smith is the
source for Azo paper and also the fount of much available knowledge about
it. You can find out a lot of information by visiting his web site.

"Collin Brendemuehl" > wrote in message
om...
> Ok, now that LF is taking my free time it's time to get
> contact printing (& enlarging as well) done right.
> Or at least to understand it more fully.
>
> So, let's pursue 8x10 contact printing for now.
> 1. Is there a "best" contact printing paper?
> 1.1 Any online examples of AZO vs. whatever, to show the difference?
>
> 2. Do chemicals make any difference here?
>
> Any other things to look at that you can think of?
>
> TIA,
>
> Collin

[Gregory W Blank]

In article >,
"Reciprocity Failure" > wrote:

> I should add that Michael Smith recommends highly dilute selenium to remove
> the greenish cast, something like 1:120. I never tried that, I used a
> stronger combintation, something like 1:10. Possibly if I had tried his
> recommendation the timing wouldn't have been so critical (I forget now why I
> didn't try it). As I'm sure others must have told you, Michael Smith is the
> source for Azo paper and also the fount of much available knowledge about
> it. You can find out a lot of information by visiting his web site.

Selenium toning using:

1to 64, 1to 32 both dilutions produce nice results for removing the green cast.

1 to 10 is excessive for most papers, in my experience.
--
LF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

[Collin Brendemuehl]

(Michael Scarpitti) wrote in message >...
> (Collin Brendemuehl) wrote in message >...
> > Ok, now that LF is taking my free time it's time to get
> > contact printing (& enlarging as well) done right.
> > Or at least to understand it more fully.
> >
> > So, let's pursue 8x10 contact printing for now.
> > 1. Is there a "best" contact printing paper?
> > 1.1 Any online examples of AZO vs. whatever, to show the difference?
> >
> > 2. Do chemicals make any difference here?
> >
> > Any other things to look at that you can think of?
> >
> > TIA,
> >
> > Collin
>
> Contact-type papers used to be commonplace, but no more. Azo will give
> you astonishing quality.

Mike,

It was good to meet you @ Cord on Sat. afternoon.
Enjoying your Leica?

Collin

[Dan Quinn]

RE: "Reciprocity Failure" > wrote

> ...Michael Smith is the source for Azo paper...

M. Smith is one source for Azo. At least B&H is another.
I'm glad to see there is a nice selection of contact papers on
the market once again. I've a mind to try the direct negative method.
Although projection speed papers can be used so too can contact
speed emulsions. Dan

[Gregory W Blank]

In article >,
(Dan Quinn) wrote:

> RE: "Reciprocity Failure" > wrote
>
> > ...Michael Smith is the source for Azo paper...
>
> M. Smith is one source for Azo. At least B&H is another.
> I'm glad to see there is a nice selection of contact papers on
> the market once again. I've a mind to try the direct negative method.
> Although projection speed papers can be used so too can contact
> speed emulsions. Dan

B&H has older stock or is getting it from some outsource, or is
just plain competing with Michael.

If you want the paper to be available in the future I suggest getting it
from Michael.
--
LF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

[Gregory W Blank]

In article >,
"Reciprocity Failure" > wrote:

> >1 to 10 is excessive for most papers, in my experience.
>
> "Excessive" in what way? In other words, what bad thing happen with that
> dilution in your experience? I think I started using that dilution at 4
> minutes with Polymax Fine Art paper after reading test results for DMax with
> that paper (and others) published by Fred Newman in a Photo Techniques
> magazine article several years ago. I believe that dilution for that time
> produced optimum DMax according to his tests with Polymax Fine Art but it's
> been a while and my memory could be wrong.

For one thing it tones the paper too fast, getting subtle tone change
then is at risk. I use 1to 64, 1to 32 for very subtle change over three minutes.

My experience it that the dmax is better controlled with contrast filteration or development-
exposure in the case of Azo not by toning methodology, excessive contrast change as a result
of toning produces weird contrast. If thats what you want so be it. The whole point of Azo is subtle
tonality, and its a different game than projection printing-apples to apples I say.
--
LF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

[sympatico.ca]

> B&H has older stock or is getting it from some outsource, or is
> just plain competing with Michael.
>
> If you want the paper to be available in the future I suggest getting it
> from Michael.
> --

If you are north of the border you can order Azo in gde 2 8x10 at least (and
possibly other sizes) in Canada (hence no customs hassles) from
www.treckhall.com about 30% cheaper than most other sources. This is new
stock direct from Kodak (Azo is now made in Canada). So you are keeping
Kodak stocking it (there is a $100.00 minimum order)

You can also get lots of 5x7 Ilford film etc from them too

[John]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 19:00:52 -0700, "sympatico.ca"
> wrote:

>You can also get lots of 5x7 Ilford film etc from them too

Delta 400 ? I know it's available in the 13X18 in EU but not
imported here into the states as far as I can tell.


Regards,

John S. Douglas, Photographer - http://www.darkroompro.com
Please remove the "_" when replying via email

[sympatico.ca]

"John" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 19:00:52 -0700, "sympatico.ca"
> > wrote:
>
> >You can also get lots of 5x7 Ilford film etc from them too
>
> Delta 400 ? I know it's available in the 13X18 in EU but not
> imported here into the states as far as I can tell.

Sorry - Ilford basically canned Delta 400 in sheet sizes some time ago

[Michael Scarpitti]

(Collin Brendemuehl) wrote in message >...
> (Michael Scarpitti) wrote in message >...
> > (Collin Brendemuehl) wrote in message >...
> > > Ok, now that LF is taking my free time it's time to get
> > > contact printing (& enlarging as well) done right.
> > > Or at least to understand it more fully.
> > >
> > > So, let's pursue 8x10 contact printing for now.
> > > 1. Is there a "best" contact printing paper?
> > > 1.1 Any online examples of AZO vs. whatever, to show the difference?
> > >
> > > 2. Do chemicals make any difference here?
> > >
> > > Any other things to look at that you can think of?
> > >
> > > TIA,
> > >
> > > Collin
> >
> > Contact-type papers used to be commonplace, but no more. Azo will give
> > you astonishing quality.
>
> Mike,
>
> It was good to meet you @ Cord on Sat. afternoon.
> Enjoying your Leica?

Naturally!


>
> Collin

[Dan Quinn]

RE: Gregory W Blank > wrote

> Dan Quinn wrote:
>
> > Fortezo does list a contact speed paper. Likely Europe is the
> > only source.
>
> Bad info: It can be gotten and is distributed in the USA.
>

Would you care to name a source?

In all my shopping for papers from Freestyle on the West and
B&H on the East, I've not seen a Forte contact paper listed. Dan

[Gregory W Blank]

In article >,
(Dan Quinn) wrote:

> RE: Gregory W Blank > wrote
>
> > Dan Quinn wrote:
> >
> > > Fortezo does list a contact speed paper. Likely Europe is the
> > > only source.
> >
> > Bad info: It can be gotten and is distributed in the USA.
> >
>
> Would you care to name a source?
>
> In all my shopping for papers from Freestyle on the West and
> B&H on the East, I've not seen a Forte contact paper listed. Dan

The mistake is two fold then, at first glance I read "Fortezo" Only,....
not the contact paper part.

Its - Forte !!!

Fortezo is the partcular product designation for warm tone graded
paper. Contact paper you are correct is not available, however if one is given to
ordering it could be gotten through a variety of dealers, ultimately through
Omega Satter, more than likely it would require a large purchase cash up front.
Possibly a 3-6 month wait.......Forte sells roll papers in this fashion and a Good
source of roll papers and special orders is K&M camera.
--
LF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank

[sympatico.ca]

Fortezo can be had at B&H - not sure if it's a contact paper?

I get nice contact prints on Museum Weight FORTE POLYWARMTONE PLUS FB +
Neutol WA though

[sympatico.ca]

Forte does a contact paper, but it's an RC paper. However, some of their FB
papers are a slower speed than some of the major brand ones, but not quite
as slow as azo

[Gregory W Blank]

In article >,
"sympatico.ca" > wrote:

> Fortezo can be had at B&H - not sure if it's a contact paper?
>
> I get nice contact prints on Museum Weight FORTE POLYWARMTONE PLUS FB +
> Neutol WA though
>
>

Its not exclusively a contact paper, its a graded paper, it is about two stops slower
than polygraded papers.
--
LF website http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank