Schneider Kreuznach lenses also labeled "Sinar"

[cor]

Hi,

I have come across quite a few Schneider lenses which were also labeled
"Linhof" (and supposingly the better pick).

Recently I bought a 120mm Angulon which is also labeled "Sinar" in green.
And just today I saw a 210 Symmar also labeled "Sinar".

Does anybody know why this is done, and if this also means (just like the
Linhof label) that these lenses gone through an extra quality control?

Thanks,

Best,

Cor

[Bob G]

>Recently I bought a 120mm Angulon which is also labeled "Sinar" in green.
>And just today I saw a 210 Symmar also labeled "Sinar".
>
>Does anybody know why this is done, and if this also means (just like the
>Linhof label) that these lenses gone through an extra quality control?



There's always been a lot of speculation about this and I don't know if the
question has ever been answered.

I don't doubt Sinar, Linhof, and perhaps others, do their own testing but I
can't believe they'd go beyond putting the lens on a collimator, for instance,
just to make sure it's not a dud.

Do you think Schneider, etc., would be so lax in their quality control as to
slip Sinar an inferior lens?






Bob G

[jjs]

In article >,
(Bob G) wrote:

> [...]
> I don't doubt Sinar, Linhof, and perhaps others, do their own testing but I
> can't believe they'd go beyond putting the lens on a collimator, for instance,
> just to make sure it's not a dud.

If Linhof and Sinar tested every single lens, then that might be more than
Zeiss did back then. As I understand it, Zeiss's assembly division uses QC
techniques which involve sampling, not tests of very lens. Under good
manufacturing techniques with good sampling methods, that's adequate, but
the state of affairs is really unknown.

> Do you think Schneider, etc., would be so lax in their quality control as to
> slip Sinar an inferior lens?

For lenses made in the sixties and earlier? Yes, I'd say it's a
statistical certainty that some inferior constructions made it past Zeiss
QC. But one has to ask _How much better are the cherry lenses_? Would we
notice?

[Bob Salomon]

In article >,
(jjs) wrote:

> In article >,
> (Bob G) wrote:
>
> > [...]
> > I don't doubt Sinar, Linhof, and perhaps others, do their own testing but I
> > can't believe they'd go beyond putting the lens on a collimator, for
> > instance,
> > just to make sure it's not a dud.
>
> If Linhof and Sinar tested every single lens, then that might be more than
> Zeiss did back then. As I understand it, Zeiss's assembly division uses QC
> techniques which involve sampling, not tests of very lens. Under good
> manufacturing techniques with good sampling methods, that's adequate, but
> the state of affairs is really unknown.
>
> > Do you think Schneider, etc., would be so lax in their quality control as
> > to
> > slip Sinar an inferior lens?
>
> For lenses made in the sixties and earlier? Yes, I'd say it's a
> statistical certainty that some inferior constructions made it past Zeiss
> QC. But one has to ask _How much better are the cherry lenses_? Would we
> notice?

As one who has watched Linhof's testing they do more then use a
collimeter.

Every lens was brought into a test room with a very large, Rodenstock
made Siemens Star projector and tested every lens individually on this
system as well as visual inspections in another area and shutter tests
in another section.

--
To reply no_ HPMarketing Corp.

[jjs]

In article >,
Bob Salomon > wrote:

> [...]
> As one who has watched Linhof's testing they do more then use a
> collimeter.
>
> Every lens was brought into a test room with a very large, Rodenstock
> made Siemens Star projector and tested every lens individually on this
> system as well as visual inspections in another area and shutter tests
> in another section.

Couldn't snip a thing. Thanks for that, Bob. It makes the difference.

[christoph-erdmann.pfeiler]

Gentle reader,

there is just another thing to add - the labeling of a lens is very
often done after making small adjustments for a specific camera system,
especially adding (or removing) some distance rings to an optical mount.
Sinar has a very special diaphragm for their behind-the-lens-shutter.
Linhof casually delivers lenses with coupling distance meter cam rods.
Often these lenses are remounted with ordinary shutters and are possibly
misaligned.

If the lenses are not mounted in a original adapter plate of the
specific manufacturer, be careful and ask the previous owner

jjs wrote:
> In article >,
> Bob Salomon > wrote:
>
>
>>[...]
>>As one who has watched Linhof's testing they do more then use a
>>collimeter.
>>
>>Every lens was brought into a test room with a very large, Rodenstock
>>made Siemens Star projector and tested every lens individually on this
>>system as well as visual inspections in another area and shutter tests
>>in another section.
>
>
> Couldn't snip a thing. Thanks for that, Bob. It makes the difference.

[Bob Salomon]

In article >,
"christoph-erdmann.pfeiler" > wrote:

> Linhof casually delivers lenses with coupling distance meter cam rods.
> Often these lenses are remounted with ordinary shutters and are possibly
> misaligned.

You are using very convuluted wording.

Linhof supplies lenses with a lensboard and a coupling package for the
Technika camera.

Linhof supplies lens boards for both Technika and Kardan camera with 0,
1 or 3 size holes.

Linhof supplies lenses without the coupling package for use on any
camera.

If you have a Technika it is important that the cam you are using is the
cam made for the lens you are using on a V or Master (the serial number
of the lens is also on the cam). If you have a IV or III the serial
number of the camera and the lens must be on the cam.

As for shutters Linhof uses "ordinary shutters" from Copal currently and
previously from Prontor Werke (Compur and Prontor).

If you are referring to the sale of used Linhof cams that people use
without the matching lens then that is not something Linhof "casually"
does. That is something the user does.

--
To reply no_ HPMarketing Corp.

[christoph-erdmann.pfeiler]

Dear Mr. Salomon,
gentle reader

Bob Salomon wrote:
> In article >,
> "christoph-erdmann.pfeiler" > wrote:
>
>
>>Linhof casually delivers lenses with coupling distance meter cam rods.
>>Often these lenses are remounted with ordinary shutters and are possibly
>>misaligned.
>
>
> You are using very convuluted wording.

not really. To be short, 'casually' means ecactly what is meant - they
deliver cams only, if the user requests it.

To be precise, my verbalization was mistakable (my fault was the
omission of a paragraph brake.): the person who does the 'remounting'.
That is the user, Linhof does definitely not do such ignorance.

>
> Linhof supplies lenses with a lensboard and a coupling package for the
> Technika camera.
>
> Linhof supplies lens boards for both Technika and Kardan camera with 0,
> 1 or 3 size holes.
>
> Linhof supplies lenses without the coupling package for use on any
> camera.

They strongly discourage that. They prefer mounting it completely at the
factory themselves.

>
> If you have a Technika it is important that the cam you are using is the
> cam made for the lens you are using on a V or Master (the serial number
> of the lens is also on the cam). If you have a IV or III the serial
> number of the camera and the lens must be on the cam.
>
> As for shutters Linhof uses "ordinary shutters" from Copal currently and
> previously from Prontor Werke (Compur and Prontor).
>
> If you are referring to the sale of used Linhof cams that people use
> without the matching lens then that is not something Linhof "casually"
> does. That is something the user does.
>

I'm not only referring to the combination of not matching cams and
lenses. I'm referring to remounting the optical parts of a lens onto a
different shutter or diaphragm body.

Evem remounting can introduce some error in the proper alignment - if
the torque is different!

That's the reason for the emphasis done by Linhof and Sinar on
discouraging of remounting lenses - they sell 'remounting sets', but
they obviously do not advertise them nor encourage the uses to do so.

They do this not really for plundering, they have quite strong reasons
for this practice:

In the production process of leaf shutters it is very difficult to
preserve the exact distance between their mounts through the whole
production lot - by construction the mounts are fixed onto quite a chain
of parts, so the irregularities in the production process sum up. The
ordinary model for error propagation is the root of the sum of the
squares of the specific errors - maybe quite a lot. Linhof and Sinar do
not only some refitting of the different mounts of lenses and shutters,
they compare a more or less big number of lenses and shutters and mount
the best matching specimens

Yours sincerly

cep

[Nicholas O. Lindan]

Bob Salomon wrote:
> "christoph-erdmann.pfeiler" > wrote:
> > Linhof casually delivers lenses with coupling distance meter cam rods.
> You are using very convoluted wording.

It's in "Germlish", Bob. Though, for clarity it should have been worded:

Linhof casually lenses with coupling distance meter cam rods delivers.

There, that's better.

My German is reprehensible. To be understood I find it is best to
speak in sentences of three words or less - I have the vocabulary
of a three year old (except for words like "Bier", "Sekt", "Kir",
"Klarer" ...) so I had better have a sentence structure to match.

As for translations via Babblefish & Co., it takes a lot of work
to translate the translation, though it certainly does give one
a leg up.

Mark Twain, in the plainest of English, states:

"An average sentence, in a German newspaper, is a sublime and impressive curiosity; it occupies a quarter of a column; it contains
all the ten parts of speech -- not in regular order, but mixed; it is built mainly of compound words constructed by the writer on
the spot, and not to be found in any dictionary -- six or seven words compacted into one, without joint or seam -- that is, without
hyphens; it treats of fourteen or fifteen different subjects, each inclosed in a parenthesis of its own, with here and there extra
parentheses which reinclose three or four of the minor parentheses, making pens within pens: finally, all the parentheses and
reparentheses are massed together between a couple of king-parentheses, one of which is placed in the first line of the majestic
sentence and the other in the middle of the last line of it -- after which comes the VERB, and you find out for the first time what
the man has been talking about; and after the verb -- merely by way of ornament, as far as I can make out -- the writer shovels in
"haben sind gewesen gehabt haben geworden sein," or words to that effect, and the monument is finished.

http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.

[Bob Salomon]

In article >,
"christoph-erdmann.pfeiler" > wrote:

> not really. To be short, 'casually' means ecactly what is meant - they
> deliver cams only, if the user requests it.

No.

What Linhof delivers is a cam cut for the specific lens, a focus scale
and a pair of infinity stops. We do also if you have our service center
cam your lens.

Of course Linhof charges for the coupling package. They don't just
include the cam, scale and stops. And you have to order the lensboard to
mount the lens on so it can be coupled.

Not quite casual.

--
To reply no_ HPMarketing Corp.

[Bob Salomon]

In article >,
"christoph-erdmann.pfeiler" > wrote:

> I'm not only referring to the combination of not matching cams and
> lenses. I'm referring to remounting the optical parts of a lens onto a
> different shutter or diaphragm body.
>
> Evem remounting can introduce some error in the proper alignment - if
> the torque is different!
>
> That's the reason for the emphasis done by Linhof and Sinar on
> discouraging of remounting lenses - they sell 'remounting sets', but
> they obviously do not advertise them nor encourage the uses to do so.

Neither we, nor the companies we represent - Linhof, Wista, Rodenstock
recommend users changing the shutter on their lenses. To change a
shutter so performance is not effected a qualified service center is
required.

However none of us tell users that they can not mount their lenses on
the lens board and we stock Rodenstock's Lens Wrench for 0, 1 and 3
shutters to help owners mount their lenses on their lens boards. We also
stock Technik 23, Technika 45, Kardan and M679 lens boards as well as
Wista boards with factory milled holes so the user can simply mount the
lens of their choice on the proper board with a proper mounting hole in
it. We do not recommend customers drilling lensboards (creates heat and
pressure that can warp a board). We only recommend milling or, at the
least, using a chasis punch to make the hole.

--
To reply no_ HPMarketing Corp.

[[email protected]]

In et>, on 01/21/04
at 01:53 AM, "Nicholas O. Lindan" > said:

>Mark Twain, in the plainest of English, states: [snip]

The description of the young man departing from his beloved in Twain's
meta-translation, contained in the essay "The Awful German Language," is
one of the funniest jokes in the English language, in my opinion.

-
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les clark / edgewater, nj / usa
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